Removing the military enlistment ban on Asperger's syndrome

Page 5 of 6 [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

05 Jan 2015, 4:14 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:
I don't think it should be a disqualification automatically but something to consider.

Remember that not every aspie has sensory issues or issues with schedules, so some might find the military a great success. Others might wash out.


I think Napoleon was Aspie :-)



bacun
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 27

06 Jan 2015, 4:45 am

You can join its called LYING,its not like you have a physical disability .


The fact is if you really thing "eventually they will find out " then you might suffer from schizo and not aspergers .



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

11 Jan 2015, 1:21 am

bacun wrote:
You can join its called LYING,its not like you have a physical disability .


The fact is if you really thing "eventually they will find out " then you might suffer from schizo and not aspergers .


When i was kid i want Polish Army, i'm from Poland, i was called to military medical examination (because we in Poland have draft army) unlike my other peers i hoped i will be drafted but i was rejected due medical reasons (not only asperger)

As for lying i think we not, we aspies have opinion of truth telling good boy/girls who always listen mama, daddies, bosses and all authority figures,

It's right time to change this damaging opinion, and lie and cheat as much as possible and use all methods to reach your goals! :twisted: :D



Desurage
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 93

19 Jan 2015, 8:35 pm

Guys, we're all aspies here.
There are several questions which are difficult to answer and require more investigation. No matter how convinced you are about the issue you frankly don't figure into how the future of the ban will play out.
1)can aspies function in the military?
Which will change over time(the opinion if they can, as there are probably a good number already enlisted) as the condition is better understood, especially among people who write the rules involved and the research becomes harder to ignore.
2) does the military want autists?
Is there will enough to change that, and do the people involved in making it happen in the first.
3)is there a group making significant strides, nonprofit legal activism, that is openly against this rule?
If so then advertising for them or forming on and being clear about what you want, reading books about how successful organizations worked and so on and throwing your hat in.

Think about the NRA. They have managed to repel gun control legislation through being a single issue well funded organization that talks directly to politicians and has plenty of adherents. You are discussing an issue that involves an entire subset of people vs. a state military.

In other words, you are all wrong, including me.



GrumpySarge
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 8 Dec 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 3
Location: Manitoba, Canada

31 Mar 2017, 3:00 pm

I'm formally diagnosed with ASD. I've been in the Canadian Forces for 26 years. Honestly it's the only job at which I've done well. It's hierarchical, highly structured, rules based and everyone has a very clearly delineated role and position.



Ichinin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,653
Location: A cold place with lots of blondes.

31 Mar 2017, 7:41 pm

I cannot see why there is in some countries.

I just finished employment in the Swedish Armed Forces as a civilian specialist working in IT-security/Forensics. In general there is no problem as long as you have a good manager and not some underqualified judgemental asshats why try to manipulate their staff and management to further their own careers, causing people to quit and flee - at that point, being aspie or not does not matter. I had 2 good managers, one when i started and one when i was about to exit, and i say that good leadership, empathy and understanding is key if you want to function in a hierarchical organisation, without that you can just go and look for a new job.

I was given weapons training back in 2014 and 2015, i was more interested in the combat medicine training because that was something i could use in civilian life too. After the course i even went and bought a Tourniquet and an Israeli bandage, i totally geeked out on first aid and had that as a special interest for a year or two, now i'm glad i got that training since i'm now into the whole survival/bushcraft thing.

In some respects i did fit in rather well because of my diagnosis, and in some others i had a worse time. I think i met several aspies on the unit i was working in, both civilians and officers, one officer was even officially diagnosed like me.

The problem was when i realised that i had to end the whole thing before i'd burn out totally. What could i say i have been doing? I was worried that i'd have a 7.5 year black hole in my resume. I talked about it with my managers and both of them wrote a reference letter which outlined what i could talk about. I've also summed up the technologies and skills in a separate document which i present to potential employers.

Can i recommend working there? Depends. If you are called to an interview, ask if they have experience with people on the spectrum. I know the Brittish MoD do (GCHQ), and Israeli IDF do too (Unit 9900):

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gchq-meet-the-spooks-with-very-special-skills-fmbqxtlg63m
https://www.idfblog.com/2015/04/02/one-idfs-unique-intelligence-teams-group-within-unit-9900/


_________________
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" (Carl Sagan)


JohnnyLurg
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 331

05 Apr 2017, 11:42 pm

If anyone is stupid enough to want to join the military, I say let 'em.



SharkSandwich211
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 29 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 256

06 Apr 2017, 4:25 pm

JohnnyLurg wrote:
If anyone is stupid enough to want to join the military, I say let 'em.


As a vetran of 20 years I must have been really really stupid to see the world, learn a life skill, obtain two associates and one bachelor's degree, and a source of passive income for the rest of my life. Please put the dunce cap sqarely on my head, I will wear it with pride. Kind Regards. Shark



HisShadowX
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2015
Posts: 344
Location: Chicago

20 Apr 2017, 7:19 pm

bacun wrote:
You can join its called LYING,its not like you have a physical disability .


The fact is if you really thing "eventually they will find out " then you might suffer from schizo and not aspergers .


Here's the problem with Autism. Many autistic people cannot handle the stresses in boot camp chances are you'll be broken quickly. In fact everyone is supposed to be broken and built back up into a new disciplined Marine.

People with Autism are not your typical recruit and a military unit acts as one and someone who cannot socially fit in as a disability cannot thrive though it is possibly.

In my case I washed out within three weeks of boot camp. I didn't know I had Autism had the time.

Also lying can cause huge problems once your in boot camp in fact if you try to kill your self in boot camp chances are you'll be in boot camp for over six months waiting for an Administrative or Medical Discharge. People with mental issues are kept until they get a general's signature and deemed fit to leave.

If you have a medical condition and the Marines find out you can be in boot camp for over two years. You'll eventually be given a choice have the Marines fix you in which you'll be there for two years as a PEB and sent him with Lance Corperal pay FOR LIFE or you get to go home sooner but not have Lance Corperal pay for life.

Most people escape boot camp if they can't handle it and are hunted and when they are caught they go to the brig and then back to boot camp wait to be tried.

If you get medically hurt and are in crutches you'll learn how to march in crouches.

Someone with Autism Spectrum Disorder depending on if you have a certain skill set or abilities might be perfect for working in intelligence. Think CIA



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

29 Nov 2017, 12:48 pm

AutisticAmerican24 wrote:
I really think that the military disqualification ban for Asperger's syndrome should be removed because in order to make it possible for hordes of Aspies to join the military, the ban has to be removed first. Now there are some people in foreign countries that are Aspies that wanna join the military but they can't because recruiting guidelines are so strict in those countries that they they'll instantly be disqualified once they arrive at the recruiter's office and explain their Asperger's. Everyone knows that there are a substantial number of Aspies both in the U.S. and from foreign countries from as far away as Canada, Australia and the U.K. that wanna enlist but, unfortunately they can't because they're instantly disqualified as well because of their condition. Now this obviously makes people with Asperger's in Canada, Australia and the U.K. as well as the U.S. somewhat angry and very bitter to find out that they can't qualify because of their condition.

But if we actually sued the U.S. Government and won to allow Aspies into the military, then we can have our chance to enlist unlike so far back when Asperger's was an instant ineligibility.

Here's a source of perspective from User Name: dis/Ability Advocate who explains one way to repeal the military service ban on Asperger's syndrome. Note: He's an Aspie himself.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 359AA6vc9U

Yupa thinks too that we should fight to repeal the military enlistment ban on Asperger's.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf89997-0-45.html


And where is it said that you have to be honest with them? :mrgreen:

You just do not have to disclose it and that's it :D



shortfatbalduglyman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,709

30 Nov 2017, 12:23 pm

Maybe it is pretty broad, vague, conceptual, and difficult, to show or "prove", that being neurotypical is not an "essential job function" of working in the military.

Autism includes a wide variety of different skills and weaknesses

The Army and Marines differ

Enlisted and officer differ

Different Military Occupational Specialty have different requirements

And what if it is "discrimination", then what?

Could one civilian plaintiff win a civil lawsuit against the military for "discrimination"?

That sounds hard to imagine

Maybe there would have to be an entire company full of professionals, that determine which essential job duties the military require, that requires being NT

And, even if the ban gets lifted, then what?

:idea:

Some autistics , that otherwise would have gotten disqualified, would get into the military

Some would succeed. (Whooptie do)

Some would fail. The ones that fail, could be subject to dishonorable discharge, the brig, court martial

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Or maybe someone could invent a method of determining which particular autistic applicant is suitable for the military

Right now there have the Tapas Personality test.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Granted I am just a public nuisance civilian, but :mrgreen: maybe :ninja: :heart: there is no correct technique or method of determining which specific autistic applicant :cry: :cry: :cry: is suitable for the military versus the ones that are not


But of course, I am not in the military, I am not psychic, and I am not a psychologist

And I have no authority or power anyways



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:




:D



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

05 Dec 2017, 6:39 pm

And why tell them that you have autism? :mrgreen:

I was subjected to draft in 2004 (it was lifted in 2009) and was medically rejected :( but not for autism

I not know how it works in other countries but in my country due shortage of recruits, even if they found out that you was not perfectly honest, they not discharge you :D



shortfatbalduglyman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,709

05 Dec 2017, 10:25 pm

But many autistics do not get diagnosed before joining the military

It appears that the only systematic approach would be, require all MEPS applicants to get tested for autism

Besides some diagnosis are misdiagnoses

But some autistics (not myself) are great at computer programming

And the military needs computer programmers

The military is not subject to Equal Employment Opportunity Commission or American Disability Act

:D



Chicken Man
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 29 Dec 2017
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 2
Location: Ohio

29 Dec 2017, 2:44 am

There are civilian jobs in the military that autistic folks may work, and if not should be able to work. Civilian contractors should be fine in such settings, such as military bases and whatnot. They do not face the same expectations as soldiers.

Every single member of the armed forces, which I will shorthand with the word soldier, is expected to be disciplined, follow rank and file, obey orders, understand orders, stay at attention, stay focused, avoid distraction, pay attention, notice facial cues and emotions in potentially deafening combat, have a good sense in combat, keep wits in combat, have impeccable self control, be decisive but not impulsive...The list goes on, but discipline is key. Are you disciplined? How well do you respond to discipline? It is key in the military.

Perhaps some aspergers, adhd, and other atypicals could do well in the military. But the majority? Probably not. This is the logic behind such a ban. The symptoms can create problems in one or all these areas and put lives at risk in combat. I tried joining but was disqualified for my conditions. I don't want to put a soldier at risk because I'm below average at some of these requirements, anyway. But us atypicals are good at other things...

But I digress, perhaps an atypical would make an excellent soldier, I don't know. But that's what the military is. It's what the military wants. The military may need programmers, but when someone joins they are expected to be a soldier first and whatever job they do second. If you're deployed your base may be attacked at any moment. You will have to drop what you are doing, grab your weapon and join the battle, or whatever your combat role is. Could you do this? Could you get up in the middle of the night and fight the good fight? Can you not sleep but in 3 hour increments, if that, amid gunfire and mortar blasts? What about if power goes out and the only light is muzzle flash, tracer rounds, and grenade blasts? Will you remember to pull out your nightvision goggles? Did you make your bed this morning? Ask yourself these questions before considering enlisting. Remember deployment is at home and abroad. Are you prepared to do all of the above in response to a domestic threat? Once you sign your name you are G.I. and there can be severe consequences if you don't make the grade.

I'm not trying to deter anyone. An atypical might make a great soldier. But there is more to it than simply doing your peacetime dayjob in the military. You must be prepared for war to be a soldier. If you don't think you can be the best soldier you can be be the best at what you can. I mean there must be a logical reason for such a ban, huh?

Like I said. There are civilian positions you may qualify for, such as computer programmer, and you can still serve that way. If not you should be able to. Civilians aren't expected to fight. There shouldn't be a ban on civilian employees. However, take it from a fellow atypical, I'd make a terrible soldier.



shortfatbalduglyman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,709

31 Dec 2017, 4:29 pm

Can't someone get a waiver for autism?

Or is it nonwaiverable?

And what method could separate the autistics not suitable for the military, from the ones that are?



Besides, some undiagnosed autistics could still get in



Ichinin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,653
Location: A cold place with lots of blondes.

01 Jan 2018, 10:23 am

Chicken Man wrote:
There are civilian jobs in the military that autistic folks may work, and if not should be able to work. Civilian contractors should be fine in such settings, such as military bases and whatnot. They do not face the same expectations as soldiers.

Every single member of the armed forces, which I will shorthand with the word soldier, is expected to be disciplined, follow rank and file, obey orders, understand orders, stay at attention, stay focused, avoid distraction, pay attention, notice facial cues and emotions in potentially deafening combat, have a good sense in combat, keep wits in combat, have impeccable self control, be decisive but not impulsive...The list goes on, but discipline is key. Are you disciplined? How well do you respond to discipline? It is key in the military.

Perhaps some aspergers, adhd, and other atypicals could do well in the military. But the majority? Probably not. This is the logic behind such a ban. The symptoms can create problems in one or all these areas and put lives at risk in combat. I tried joining but was disqualified for my conditions. I don't want to put a soldier at risk because I'm below average at some of these requirements, anyway. But us atypicals are good at other things...

But I digress, perhaps an atypical would make an excellent soldier, I don't know. But that's what the military is. It's what the military wants. The military may need programmers, but when someone joins they are expected to be a soldier first and whatever job they do second. If you're deployed your base may be attacked at any moment. You will have to drop what you are doing, grab your weapon and join the battle, or whatever your combat role is. Could you do this? Could you get up in the middle of the night and fight the good fight? Can you not sleep but in 3 hour increments, if that, amid gunfire and mortar blasts? What about if power goes out and the only light is muzzle flash, tracer rounds, and grenade blasts? Will you remember to pull out your nightvision goggles? Did you make your bed this morning? Ask yourself these questions before considering enlisting. Remember deployment is at home and abroad. Are you prepared to do all of the above in response to a domestic threat? Once you sign your name you are G.I. and there can be severe consequences if you don't make the grade.

I'm not trying to deter anyone. An atypical might make a great soldier. But there is more to it than simply doing your peacetime dayjob in the military. You must be prepared for war to be a soldier. If you don't think you can be the best soldier you can be be the best at what you can. I mean there must be a logical reason for such a ban, huh?

Like I said. There are civilian positions you may qualify for, such as computer programmer, and you can still serve that way. If not you should be able to. Civilians aren't expected to fight. There shouldn't be a ban on civilian employees. However, take it from a fellow atypical, I'd make a terrible soldier.


We are first individuals, not our diagnosis. Some people do well following orders, exercising etc, just look at the sports forum, some others do better with free hands developing software, doing intelligence and creating new technologies. The main difference is if you wear uniform or not.

I had problems following orders from inept people who just want to live by the paperwork, anyone would do the same if they ever took a peak at what was going on in an everyday open network and seeing all the attacks against IT systems every f*****g second, even happens occasionally in protected isolated networks with "problems on two legs". Compliance won't do s**t against that.

I really, really, really, hate paper pushing people who thinks security is all about writing a document. The kind of useless contra-productive people that should be first thrown at the Russians in a war.

I now sincerely despise the armed forces, especially the HQ and it's paper culture, that is why i had to leave. On the other hand if s**t hits the fan, they will be the first one who takes a KALIBR missile up their asses. I don't think i'll miss anyone.


_________________
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" (Carl Sagan)