Which of these following cases is rape?

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nick007
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10 Aug 2013, 11:00 am

I don't understand how someone's not capible of consenting to sex when their drunk but is able to be charged for drunk driving. When someone choses to drive drunk their jungment is also impared when they make that decision & they are held accountable for any wrecks & deaths that may result despite the fact that their jugement was impared when they made the decision in the 1st place. Yet when they are drunk they are suddently deemed incapable of making the decision to have sex or not. People need to be held accountable for their own desisions. If someone choses to get wasted around people he/she doesn't know; he/she was a moron not to consider that they might try to take advatage or that he/she might come on to them while drunk & he/she should own up to that decision instrad of crying rape, just as when a person choses to get wasted at a place he/she drove too, he/she was a mornon to to consider that he/ahe might drive back & should be picked up & charged for drunk driving if he/she decideds to drive back.


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albedo
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10 Aug 2013, 11:18 am

Woodpecker wrote:
albedo wrote:
Woodpecker you are saying A or E is rape even if the person doesn't allege it?


I hold the view that a crime occurs regardless of the fact that no one has compained yet, if I throw a stone at your window the act of throwing a stone with the intention of breaking the window is a crime. The vandalism does not become a crime at the moment you complain to a policeman.


If you throw a stone my window, the policeman will see it and may take you down to the station, but they will contact me and if I don't want to peruse, it then you cannot be charged, however you might be charged with some other public order offense, otherwise you will be unarrested, and you will be free to go.

There are also other reasons why you might throw a stone at my window that aren't malicious, such as me asking you to.

There are these legal safeguards for a reason, and are not just opinions, they are based on centuries of legal testing, and they actually use the word 'safe'. An acquittal is made when a conviction is deemed 'unsafe'. As in the evidence, no longer stand ups to scrutiny, or there is new information, that changes the course of events.

In the case of assault if I give the defense of consent, that should be enough for it to be thrown out.



albedo
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10 Aug 2013, 11:23 am

nick007 wrote:
I don't understand how someone's not capible of consenting to sex when their drunk but is able to be charged for drunk driving. When someone choses to drive drunk their jungment is also impared when they make that decision & they are held accountable for any wrecks & deaths that may result despite the fact that their jugement was impared when they made the decision in the 1st place.


It is the same as operating heavy machinery. Your ability to actually task safely is impaired. But you are right, you have opportunity not to get to the point where you drink drives.

Whilst you might argue that for sex, it isn't actually a crime to drink and have sex.

That is because you aren't putting others at risk, just the consenting parties. If you where having foreplay whist driving maybe you would have a point.

We are talking about consent here.



The_Face_of_Boo
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10 Aug 2013, 12:19 pm

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Embrace true Islam and none of these cases would occur.



ShamelessGit
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10 Aug 2013, 12:42 pm

nick007 wrote:
I don't understand how someone's not capible of consenting to sex when their drunk but is able to be charged for drunk driving. When someone choses to drive drunk their jungment is also impared when they make that decision & they are held accountable for any wrecks & deaths that may result despite the fact that their jugement was impared when they made the decision in the 1st place. Yet when they are drunk they are suddently deemed incapable of making the decision to have sex or not. People need to be held accountable for their own desisions. If someone choses to get wasted around people he/she doesn't know; he/she was a moron not to consider that they might try to take advatage or that he/she might come on to them while drunk & he/she should own up to that decision instrad of crying rape, just as when a person choses to get wasted at a place he/she drove too, he/she was a mornon to to consider that he/ahe might drive back & should be picked up & charged for drunk driving if he/she decideds to drive back.


This was the argument I was trying to make in my first post, only I think you made it better



Tyri0n
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10 Aug 2013, 5:31 pm

minervx wrote:
A
A woman is drunk and a man is sober. She strongly comes on to him, initiates almost every, and after she's persistent about it, he agrees to have sex with her. The next day, she doesn't regret it at all.

B
Same situation as "A", but regrets ever sleeping with him and vows that if she were sober she wouldn't have came onto him.

C
Both the man and woman are equally drunk. The man pursues her and she agrees to have sex. The next day she has no regrets at all.

D
Same situation as "C" but she regrets ever sleeping with him.

E
A man is drunk and the woman is sober. The woman totally takes advantage of him and he enjoys it the whole time. The next day he has no regrets whatsoever.


This question set is flawed. All of them may be or may not be rape depending on other factors.

Being a little tipsy is obviously not rape, being unable to walk alone is up in the air and being blacked out is definitely rape. It depends on HOW drunk the supposed victim is and whether a jury would be convinced that the victim consented and was capable of consent. There probably is a gray area, too, at some point.



RudeGoldbergMachine
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10 Aug 2013, 5:40 pm

I am well acquainted with rape laws in my state; the intoxication of the aggressor is legally irrelevant, but if the victim was drunk they have grounds for pressing charges.

I also want to point out that E does NOT say the man consented to it. It says he enjoyed it the whole time. That's not the same thing. Someone may enjoy the sex but still not give consent or be unable to give consent. This kind of confusion results in arguments that if a woman gets aroused or has an orgasm during forcible rape, that is the same as consent. It's an ugly and wrong-headed idea.



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10 Aug 2013, 6:38 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
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Embrace true Islam and none of these cases would occur.

Embrace Russian orthodoxy, or Rasputin will eat your dreams!

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Shuucreme
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11 Aug 2013, 8:52 am

Tbh I think it all depends on how one looks at it. You could make a case out of A, B, and E because one party did not have full control over mental facilities--ergo, they may not have been coherent enough to give actual "consent". C and D, with both parties intoxicated would probably be considered "poor judgement" as long as both parties agreed and were adults.

The thing is though, due to society's double standards, I feel that it would be possible for the male in most cases to be convicted of "rape" since women tend to be seen as the "weaker sex", anyway.

In my opinion, none of these cases are rape, just poor judgement.



Cafeaulait
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11 Aug 2013, 9:30 am

all of them rape



Ann2011
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11 Aug 2013, 9:48 am

None of them are rape.



hanyo
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11 Aug 2013, 10:08 am

None of the above. All involved consent. Regret doesn't make it rape.



Last edited by hanyo on 11 Aug 2013, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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11 Aug 2013, 10:10 am

Shuucreme wrote:
Tbh I think it all depends on how one looks at it. You could make a case out of A, B, and E because one party did not have full control over mental facilities--ergo, they may not have been coherent enough to give actual "consent". C and D, with both parties intoxicated would probably be considered "poor judgement" as long as both parties agreed and were adults.


It really does all depend on how pissed they were.



hanyo
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11 Aug 2013, 10:15 am

Tyri0n wrote:

Being a little tipsy is obviously not rape, being unable to walk alone is up in the air and being blacked out is definitely rape. It depends on HOW drunk the supposed victim is and whether a jury would be convinced that the victim consented and was capable of consent. There probably is a gray area, too, at some point.


That's what I think.

Just being drunk doesn't make you unable to consent but eventually a person could be so drunk that they can't really consent.

Laying there unmoving and barely conscious doesn't mean you consent. Neither does being passed out or sleeping.



Tequila
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11 Aug 2013, 10:19 am

If the person you're trying to shag has had that much that they are unable to walk unaided, I would consider it rape to have sex with them because their mental awareness is extremely depleted.



Ladywoofwoof
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11 Aug 2013, 12:00 pm

This discussion reminds me of an episode of 'What would you do" -

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QcLs98NeJY[/youtube]

Perhaps this matter could be resolved (at least to a great extent) by the introduction of a law against people using drugs in public to the extent that they become incapable of sentient thought.
The situation could still be problematic at private parties and suchlike of course, but the frequency of it happening would most likely be greatly reduced.