I am Mixed About Islam.
Jacoby
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07 Oct 2013, 3:19 pm
Fnord wrote:
The Koran is either all true, or it is a work of fiction.
A surprising false dichotomy coming from a man who is educated about theology.
If we take the Bible as an example, most if not all Christians would say that parts of it are fictional (such as Jesus' parabels) and parts of it are true (most uncontroversially, many of the letters).
zacb wrote:
what is happening in Europe worries me.
What do you think is "happening in Europe"?
AGhostWriter wrote:
Without extremism Islam is arguably just as good... [as] any other belief system.
whs. Don't let your perception of Muslims be tarred by bigots and extremists. Most Muslims in the West are essentially indistinguishable from the non-religious and Christians, apart from their quirks like halal and sawm. There are many issues in other countries of course, and the text is dodgy, but the religion isn't the text.
07 Oct 2013, 4:39 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The Koran is either all true, or it is a work of fiction.
A surprising false dichotomy coming from a man who is educated about theology.
All right, you got me there. I had just finished reading a story about a Saudi woman who was sentences to receive 200 lashes and prison time after being gang-raped by seven Saudi men. It still has me livid.
Her crime?
Under Saudi Arabia's interpretation of Islamic law, women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than their male relatives.
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07 Oct 2013, 4:57 pm
Fnord wrote:
Alexius848 wrote:
Islam is a peaceful religion ... if you read the Koran you'll see just how peaceful it is ...
I have read the Koran. Obviously, you haven't:
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
...
Islam is a religion of ignorance, violence, and murder. Cursed be the 'Prophet'! Cursed be all who praise his filthy name!
Okay that's enough. I've read the bible too, so I know there are load of mixed prophets and stuff, you only have to ask some members on here and they will correct your findings.
It's 'Praise Allah Allah is Good 'and they repeat the prophecy about five or ten times until the cleansing ritual is complete, I had to understand the ritual and this can be a confusing process for me and at college a girl who was muslim had to tell me what each religious belief ate, as Ramadan commands strict rules about fasting.
You are such converts. Did you manage to translate it all? from the Kuran?
07 Oct 2013, 5:07 pm
Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The Koran is either all true, or it is a work of fiction.
A surprising false dichotomy coming from a man who is educated about theology.
All right, you got me there. I had just finished reading a story about a Saudi woman who was sentences to receive 200 lashes and prison time after being gang-raped by seven Saudi men. It still has me livid.
Her crime?
Under Saudi Arabia's interpretation of Islamic law, women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than their male relatives.
Fundementalist Islam (and indeed fundementalism in general) leads to too many atrocities,
07 Oct 2013, 5:09 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
And again I see you are wading into the "all Muslims are evil" waters.
Where did I do that? Please tell me where I waded into those waters?
I pointed out that Islam is a supremacist and racist religion that calls for apostates to be murdered. It also leaves its followers with terrible guilt about life, and about their existence on Earth, and about not being devout enough, and about their sexuality. Its own holy texts set this out in black and white. Read it sometime.
Can you tell the difference between me saying that about Islam and me saying that all Muslims are supremacist racists who want any apostates to be killed? I would agree with you that if I were saying that, it would be horrendous bigotry of the very first water.
There are loads and loads of liberal Muslims out there but it seems to me that they are good people in spite of what their religion teaches, not because of what it teaches.
I know quite a few Muslims. They aren't evil, they're nice people. Some are not very observant (and are essentially closet Ex). By that same token, just because there are a fair number of nice people who happen to be Muslims out there doesn't mean that Islam is a nice ideology.
Islam, with its scripturally-mandated doctrine of armed jihad and world domination, is not peaceful.
The_Walrus wrote:
Most Muslims in the West are essentially indistinguishable from the non-religious and Christians, apart from their quirks like halal and sawm.
I don't know where you live, but it's quite segregated up here. We have "Muslim areas", the whole works. It's not as bad here as it is in East Lancashire and West Yorkshire, though. There relations are very tense I believe.
It's sort of what happens when you have large numbers of people immigrate from areas of Pakistan that are so backward even other Pakistanis look down on them and then tell them not to integrate into secular society and give into various different demands.
Incidentally, have you been reading about the latest developments from Tower Hamlets? The presiding leadership of the council have been openly praising the Islamic Forum of Europe in council meetings! This is now a national security concern rather than simply a local matter.
I feel sorry for the remaining non-Muslims living in that part of the world, and for the sane Bangladeshis living in Tower Hamlets who must feel very embarrassed indeed for the image that their council projects. How is it that a community representing, what is it, a third of the population of the Borough can completely dominate the council?
News stories tend to focus on the bad things about Islam. Can you print some good stories? I try to mention positive stories when I come across them.
sonofghandi wrote:
Your mass stereotype of an entire population spread throughout many vastly different cultures and your interpretation of the holy works of a religion that you do not follow are the pinnacle of bigotry.
So what does, for example, 9:29 mean?
Can you point out the good parts? The ones that aren't abrogated or twisted?
I'm making most of the same arguments that many ex-Muslims make. Are they demonising Islam and Muslims too?
My point is that Muslims should be protected from abuse and hatred, but that Islam should not be exempt from criticism, mockery or ridicule. It should receive the same treatment that Christianity gets on a daily basis. Islam should receive no special privileges whatsoever. None.
sonofghandi wrote:
You use the most extremist anecdotes and dismiss any evidence to the contrary.
No, I'm saying that the problem starts with the book. Not all of the problems that are commonly thought to be to do with Islam are actually inherent in the Quran (some are cultural), but it's often hard to know where the religion ends and the culture starts.
Like? I accept that there are many brave Muslims out there fighting for secular rights, education for women. I'm thinking of Malala Yousafzai, Deeyah (what happened to her and the cowardice shown in not one but two Western countries was absolutely unbelievable), Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji (although I think she's trying to stay in the tent), Ahmed Akkari, Mohamed Zuhdi Jasser, Tarek Fatah, Khaled Abu Toameh (a Palestinian Arab that is to Israel), Maryam Namazie (although I don't always agree with her, and I certainly never would politically!), Ed Husain (though he lost some major points with me when he slandered Hirsi Ali "far-right").
07 Oct 2013, 5:29 pm
Fnord wrote:
Alexius848 wrote:
Islam is a peaceful religion ... if you read the Koran you'll see just how peaceful it is ...
I have read the Koran. Obviously, you haven't:
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
...
Islam is a religion of ignorance, violence, and murder. Cursed be the 'Prophet'! Cursed be all who praise his filthy name!
I had a study at my former church of it, and it seems a tad contradictory at times, although that can be said of the Bible as well. I don't get why they hate people of the book,when they are not commanded to care aboit them . It seems to me that many ordinary Muslims outsid ethe middeast are quit epeaceful, although I some are suspect. And a sfar as the moors, they took care of the Jews. This confuses me.
07 Oct 2013, 5:34 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The Koran is either all true, or it is a work of fiction.
A surprising false dichotomy coming from a man who is educated about theology.
If we take the Bible as an example, most if not all Christians would say that parts of it are fictional (such as Jesus' parabels) and parts of it are true (most uncontroversially, many of the letters).
zacb wrote:
what is happening in Europe worries me.
What do you think is "happening in Europe"?
AGhostWriter wrote:
Without extremism Islam is arguably just as good... [as] any other belief system.
whs. Don't let your perception of Muslims be tarred by bigots and extremists. Most Muslims in the West are essentially indistinguishable from the non-religious and Christians, apart from their quirks like halal and sawm. There are many issues in other countries of course, and the text is dodgy, but the religion isn't the text.
They are calling for Sharia. Also that one journalist being threatened worries me. I know a Muslim or two, and I feel bad for one, because someone wa sinsulting him to the point of tears. I felt bad for him. He seems like a decent person, and I hope he is able to not be affected by this idiocy. But then my other friend was bein gthreatened by her father, so it makes me confused.
07 Oct 2013, 5:40 pm
zacb wrote:
I had a study at my former church of it, and it seems a tad contradictory at times, although that can be said of the Bible as well. I don't get why they hate people of the book,when they are not commanded to care aboit them . It seems to me that many ordinary Muslims outsid ethe middeast are quit epeaceful, although I some are suspect. And a sfar as the moors, they took care of the Jews. This confuses me.
It's not difficult to understand.
Most Muslims are peaceful folks and just want to get on with life like everyone else, but at its root Islam is not a peaceful ideology. It was founded in 7th century Arabia - what do you expect? And that's why there are so many battles around the world, because Islam is basically constantly at war with itself and everyone else.
Anyway, if you want to look up the subject, there are loads of places to do just that if you want. I'd recommend rooting around the Muslim and ex-Muslim parts of Reddit to give you an idea about how they see it from each side.
That's why, for example, child marriage would be seen with utter revulsion in more liberal and secular Muslim countries but might be carried out in backward dirt villages in Yemen or Saudi Arabia.
07 Oct 2013, 6:02 pm
zacb wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
zacb wrote:
what is happening in Europe worries me.
What do you think is "happening in Europe"?
They are calling for Sharia. Also that one journalist being threatened worries me. I know a Muslim or two, and I feel bad for one, because someone wa sinsulting him to the point of tears. I felt bad for him. He seems like a decent person, and I hope he is able to not be affected by this idiocy. But then my other friend was bein gthreatened by her father, so it makes me confused.
The people calling for Sharia law is a few dozen people (if that) putting up leaflets in one borough of London. There are millions of Muslims in Britain. Please don't judge a lot of good people based on these few crazy fundies. It would be like judging Americans after reading about Westboro Baptist Church.
Lots of people are threatened by their family members. It is possible this happens more in Muslim families as they tend to be more patriarchal (certainly when the patriarch is a first generation immigrant), but equally they drink less alcohol so it could be abated. I don't know the statistics for sure.
07 Oct 2013, 6:04 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
The people calling for Sharia law is a few dozen people (if that) putting up leaflets in one borough of London.
And the borough council.
The people that run the council where the homophobic leaflets were posted are heavily linked to the Islamic Forum for Europe.
In other words: Islamic caliphatists run Tower Hamlets and have done for years.
Last edited by Tequila on 07 Oct 2013, 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
sonofghandi
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08 Oct 2013, 7:02 am
Tequila wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
It would be like judging Americans after reading about Westboro Baptist Church.
Does the Westboro Baptist Church run numerous countries that it conquered by war?
No, but the various branches of Christianity have.
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08 Oct 2013, 7:04 am
sonofghandi wrote:
No, but the various branches of Christianity have.
Oh, and the Westboro Baptist Church have harmed... how many people exactly?
From what I have read of the WBC, they are only really a threat to each other.
You should read the experiences of those who have left the WBC. They are shunned, but no-one calls for their murder for leaving.
08 Oct 2013, 7:09 am
These women sound as though they are hard as nails:
Quote:
Sudanese women: you can beat us but you cannot break us
While the anger is accumulating in Sudan and peaceful demonstrators are being injured and killed by the Sudanese regime forces, this comes as a natural result of years of injustices. Sudan has been exposed to the brutality of the dogmatic ideology of political Islam, and the people have been stripped of their dignity. The story here is just a tip of the iceberg. Sudanese women are the mirror of the cruelty and disparity imposed by the ruling regime.
For 25 years now, women in Sudan have been flogged publicly. The current Sudanese regime’s ideology was clear from day one; terrorizing women - which amounts to paralysing a whole nation. Like all dogma in political Islam, the regime sat and agreed that the road to secure their position was through controlling women’s bodies, minds, existence and interaction in public. Their misogynistic ideology is based on women being problematic and in need of being disciplined and controlled: that women are both dangerous and the main instigator of immorality, equally responsible for all evil in society, hence the need to be told how to behave in public.
- Amira Osman is awaiting trial for refusing to cover her hair. She is one of thousands of Sudanese women who are being arrested under Sudan's criminal code, sentenced, and publicly lashed.
While the anger is accumulating in Sudan and peaceful demonstrators are being injured and killed by the Sudanese regime forces, this comes as a natural result of years of injustices. Sudan has been exposed to the brutality of the dogmatic ideology of political Islam, and the people have been stripped of their dignity. The story here is just a tip of the iceberg. Sudanese women are the mirror of the cruelty and disparity imposed by the ruling regime.
For 25 years now, women in Sudan have been flogged publicly. The current Sudanese regime’s ideology was clear from day one; terrorizing women - which amounts to paralysing a whole nation. Like all dogma in political Islam, the regime sat and agreed that the road to secure their position was through controlling women’s bodies, minds, existence and interaction in public. Their misogynistic ideology is based on women being problematic and in need of being disciplined and controlled: that women are both dangerous and the main instigator of immorality, equally responsible for all evil in society, hence the need to be told how to behave in public.
If civilisation ever does come to Sudan, it will be solely down to Muslim women like these, who will have won it with their immense courage in the face of extreme danger.
They deserve our respect and support.
sonofghandi
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08 Oct 2013, 7:36 am
Tequila wrote:
I pointed out that Islam is a supremacist and racist religion that calls for apostates to be murdered. It also leaves its followers with terrible guilt about life, and about their existence on Earth, and about not being devout enough, and about their sexuality. Its own holy texts set this out in black and white. Read it sometime.
I have read it. Cover to cover. Three different translations. As for the guilt, have you been to Catholic mass? Yes there are sections that call for violence, but most are within a historical context where the people were the defenders, not the aggressors.
Tequila wrote:
Can you tell the difference between me saying that about Islam and me saying that all Muslims are supremacist racists who want any apostates to be killed? I would agree with you that if I were saying that, it would be horrendous bigotry of the very first water.
You cannot say that an entire religion preaches nothing but hate and murder and then pretend like you are accepting of those who belong to the religion
Tequila wrote:
There are loads and loads of liberal Muslims out there but it seems to me that they are good people in spite of what their religion teaches, not because of what it teaches.
By that same token, just because there are a fair number of nice people who happen to be Muslims out there doesn't mean that Islam is a nice ideology.
By that same token, just because there are a fair number of nice people who happen to be Muslims out there doesn't mean that Islam is a nice ideology.
It is not Islam or its writings, it is those who use only the portions that will keep them in power. There are many moderate and liberal Muslims, and assuming that they are so in spite of the religions teachings is like assuming any Jewish people who don't exterminate every non-Jewish people in their promised land are good people in spite of their religion.
And as for "a fair number":
Pew Research surveys in 2008 show that in Jordan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, and Bangladesh there have been substantial declines in the percentages saying suicide-bombings and other forms of violence against civilians can be justified to defend Islam against its enemies. Wide majorities say such attacks are, at most, rarely acceptable. The shift of attitudes against terror has been especially dramatic in Jordan, where 29% of Jordanians were recorded as viewing suicide-attacks as often or sometimes justified (down from 57% in May 2005). In the largest majority-Muslim nation, Indonesia, 74% of respondents agree that terrorist attacks are "never justified" (a substantial increase from the 41% level to which support had risen in March 2004); in Pakistan, that figure is 86%; in Bangladesh, 81%; and in Iran, 80%
Tequila wrote:
My point is that Muslims should be protected from abuse and hatred, but that Islam should not be exempt from criticism, mockery or ridicule. It should receive the same treatment that Christianity gets on a daily basis. Islam should receive no special privileges whatsoever. None.
I would be fine if you were only criticizing their religion. Your claims, however, do not make much distinction between the people of the religion and the religion itself. You yourself admit to knowing many non-violent Muslims, yet you continue to assume that the entire religion is based on hate and killing all enemies. You say that Muslims should be protected from abuse and hatred, yet you continue to spew out your twisted abuse and hatred of their entire religion. If your interpretation was the basis of the religion, don't you think that there would be a whole lot more killing? You do realize that there are of 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide? That is nearly 25% of the world population.
You can be dismissive of their scriptures and those who follow only its most extreme parts all you want to. I just don't like the way you paint the entire faith as an evil one.
This is the core of Islam:
Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
Establishment of the daily prayers;
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
Self-purification through fasting; and
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.
This is a good website to see the basics of Islam, not the skewed crap spewed out by Islamaphobes, mostly on Christian websites:
Islam 101
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