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MCalavera
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08 Oct 2013, 10:52 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
An honest read of the Qur'an would suggest that jihad refers to both physical violent war against the Kaffar and spiritual verbal war. Depends on what verse/passage you're checking.


Yes, I would assume so but when you are discussing something as abstract as a 'holy war', an honest read seems very difficult to define. Assuming what you say is true, it would therefore be safe to assume that the Koran is an inspiration to those seeking out to participate in violent religious behaviour? By the way, this is in no way saying that every Muslim is supportive of Jihad or wishes to partake in it themselves.


I know the verb "Jahada" means "struggle, fight for something". Can't confirm exactly what the related word "Jihad" means exactly through my own limited knowledge.

But you're right. The Qur'an is so damn vague it's hard to decipher a coherent view of what the Qur'an is getting at. But then again, the same with many of the laws and commandments in the Bible.



LogicalMolly
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08 Oct 2013, 11:01 am

zacb wrote:
Why were the Moors actually pretty mellow, yet the Arabics are all pissy?


Someone pray correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm not Arab myself and am by no means an expert) but I believe "Arabic" refers to the language, not the race. It annoys me when I keep hearing people refer to "Arabic" people. I think the word you're looking for is "Arab."

Maybe no one else cares, but language is one of my special interests, so I will just rant about it here for a bit. :oops: Arab can be either an adjective or a noun. Hence, you can say "an Arab" or "an Arab person." However, you cannot (or at least you should not) say "an Arabic person," because Arabic is a language, not a race.

Incidentally, people also confuse the word "Arab" with the word "Muslim." "Arab" identifies race and "Muslim" identifies religion. You can be Arab without being Muslim, and you can be Muslim without being Arab - just as you can be Caucasian without being Christian, and you can be Christian without being Caucasian. But try telling that to the press. They're always going on about people being "racist" towards Muslims, when actually they are talking about religious discrimination.



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08 Oct 2013, 11:08 am

MCalavera wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
False... In fact, If you had followed AGhostWriter's wiki link, you would have found the *original* source in the second sentence in the article.

The Five Pillars of Islam are found in the famous Hadith of Gabriel, which is part of the Sunnah/Hadith, not the Qur'an.

... Which was my entire point in the first place.

A lot of people tend to ignore many of the violent teachings in Islam (which are legion in the Sunnah) because they completely disregard the Sunnah. This selective account of Islam is invalid, however, as many of the core tenets of the faith (and - evidently - the most basic ones) are described in the Sunnah, and not the Qur'an. Oh, and this applies to Sunni and Shia alike, since both denominations rely upon Hadith (although the Shia derive their Hadith from the Imamah).

And there is also a tendency to disregard the abrogation of the peaceful Qur'anic verses in favour of the violent verses (Naskh), which has been a fundamental aspect of Qur'anic interpretation (tafsir) for more than a millennia.

Actually, I'm not wrong. The Qur'anic verses do have these instructions, just not explicitly listed as five pillars. In fact, they are repeated over and over again in almost every sura.

Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muhammad must be included in the Shahada (First pillar)? - (Or for Shia Muslims, the inclusion of Ali as well)
Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muslims must pray (Salat) five times a day (Second pillar)?
Where in the Qur'an does it say that the Zakat must be 2.5 percent (Fourth pillar)?



knowbody15
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08 Oct 2013, 12:40 pm

While we debate their doctrine and theology, the actions of Muslims are alarming.....the shite that goes down. You can try to make them into victims of some other power, the west, etc, but they pretty much slaughter each other mostly. And then you can look at event after event where Christian churches gets burned down for no reason, Christians gets slaughtered...in simple terms, a lot, this happens all the time. Or look at a picture of a gay guy hanging from a crane, or some girl with half a face burned off from acid. That's alarming and happens quite a bit. State sponsered crane hangings? Our society shuns hate crimes, their society enforces hate crimes.

It's a given that all Muslims aren't bad. Millions and millions of Muslims aren't "bad." You'd be an idiot to think so. But you can look at a problem with Islam in general by talking about the doctrine in the sense that it's written in a timeless fashion, the enemies of the Koran are infidels, their name is timeless and their definition is timeless. In the bible, most of the destruction is pointed at specific groups during specific times. That's worth mentioning because not a single soul can honestly justify genocide using the old testament without massive public shunning. Whereas, you could make good arguments for genocide using the Koran given that the "infidel" is a timeless word. We can all be infidels, but we can't be Amalakites.....


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wreck1
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08 Oct 2013, 1:00 pm

MCalavera wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
An honest read of the Qur'an would suggest that jihad refers to both physical violent war against the Kaffar and spiritual verbal war. Depends on what verse/passage you're checking.


Yes, I would assume so but when you are discussing something as abstract as a 'holy war', an honest read seems very difficult to define. Assuming what you say is true, it would therefore be safe to assume that the Koran is an inspiration to those seeking out to participate in violent religious behaviour? By the way, this is in no way saying that every Muslim is supportive of Jihad or wishes to partake in it themselves.


I know the verb "Jahada" means "struggle, fight for something". Can't confirm exactly what the related word "Jihad" means exactly through my own limited knowledge.

But you're right. The Qur'an is so damn vague it's hard to decipher a coherent view of what the Qur'an is getting at. But then again, the same with many of the laws and commandments in the Bible.


Jihad means struggel.
You can do bigger jihad and lesser Jihad.
Big jihad is with the soul, probably like inner dialogues and reading and debating.
Lesser Jihad is with the sword.

I know one can say, use the words:
Jihad with the pen.
Jihad with the tongue.
Jihad with the hands (work).
Jihad with the sword.
Jihad with the pussh - women running after men (Illeagal)).



glow
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08 Oct 2013, 1:42 pm

This post is obviously about the term 'Jihad' and its origins and meaning.

Here's a clip from wiki

11 External links

Origins

Main article: List of expeditions of Muhammad

It also means 'struggle of Islam' but in which holy context this is used I am not so sure.

''The beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Quran.[16] This encourages the use of Jihad against non-Muslims.[17] The Quran, however, never uses the term Jihad for fighting and combat in the name of Allah; qital is used to mean “fighting.” Jihad in the Quran was originally intended for the nearby neighbors of the Muslims, but as time passed and more enemies arose, the Quranic statements supporting Jihad were updated for the new adversaries.[17] The first documentation of the law of Jihad was written by 'Abd al-Rahman al-Awza'i and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Shaybani. The document grew out of debates that had surfaced ever since Muhammad's death.''

Usage of the term

''In Modern Standard Arabic, jihad is one of the correct terms for a struggle for any cause, violent or not, religious or secular (though كفاح kifāḥ is also used).[citation needed] For instance, Mahatma Gandhi's satyagraha struggle for Indian independence is called a "jihad" in Modern Standard Arabic (as well as many other dialects of Arabic); the terminology is also applied to the fight for women's liberation.[18]

The term 'jihad' has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. It can simply mean striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam as well as fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.[19] The relative importance of these two forms of jihad is a matter of controversy. A poll by Gallup showed that a "significant majority" of Muslim Indonesians define the term to mean "sacrificing one's life for the sake of Islam/God/a just cause" or "fighting against the opponents of Islam".



Cei
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08 Oct 2013, 1:42 pm

wreck1 wrote:
Jihad with the pussh - women running after men (Illeagal)).


Wreck, what on earth are you talking about?



ruveyn
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08 Oct 2013, 2:02 pm

Jihad is the transliteration of Arabic for "struggle". Similar in meaning to the German word Kampf.

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08 Oct 2013, 2:22 pm

Tequila wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
The people calling for Sharia law is a few dozen people (if that) putting up leaflets in one borough of London.


And the borough council.

The people that run the council where the homophobic leaflets were posted are heavily linked to the Islamic Forum for Europe.

In other words: Islamic caliphatists run Tower Hamlets and have done for years.

Sure, whatever you say.
Tequila wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
It would be like judging Americans after reading about Westboro Baptist Church.


Does the Westboro Baptist Church run numerous countries that it conquered by war?

Does the IFE?
Tequila wrote:
You should read the experiences of those who have left the WBC. They are shunned, but no-one calls for their murder for leaving.

Given they call for the divine murder and torture of everyone who isn't in their church, also calling for the divine murder of apostates would be redundant.



wreck1
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08 Oct 2013, 2:48 pm

Cei wrote:
wreck1 wrote:
Jihad with the pussh - women running after men (Illeagal)).


Wreck, what on earth are you talking about?

In Syria now women are being recruited for giving sexual pleasure for the men whom are absent in the combat zone and does not have access to their wifes. I am talking about the usage of the word.

Why exactly does everyone object on my posts?!



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08 Oct 2013, 3:09 pm

Quoting scripture from the Qur'an to demonise Islam doesn't seem a lot different to me than people who quote even more horrific teachings from the Babylonian Talmud to demonise Judaism.

This paragraph from the Wiki page on the Talmud gives a good rebuttal that could equally be applied to the Qur'an :-

"The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states that antisemitic critics of the Talmud frequently use erroneous translations or selective quotations in order to distort the meaning of the Talmud's text, and sometimes fabricate passages. In addition, the attackers rarely provide full context of the quotations, and fail to provide contextual information about the culture that the Talmud was composed in, nearly 2,000 years ago.[90]

Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, states that many antisemitic attacks on the Talmud are merely recycling discredited material that originated in the 13th-century disputations, particularly from Raymond Marti and Nicholas Donin, and that the criticisms are based on quotations taken out of context, and are sometimes entirely fabricated.["


Another thing to consider, Islam is such an important part of these peoples lives that they describe their whole existence in terms of it, hence, when the West attacks and invades Islamic Countries in order to steal their oil, their response is expressed in a religious context rather than a Nationalistic context.

So the "suicide bomber" describes himself as dying for Allah, whereas in reality he is more likely dying for his country in the only way he can envisage to fight back at secular occupying forces,, little realising he is damaging the reputation of Islam by using it out of context.



wreck1
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08 Oct 2013, 3:18 pm

semite means arab not jew.



MCalavera
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08 Oct 2013, 5:04 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muhammad must be included in the Shahada (First pillar)? - (Or for Shia Muslims, the inclusion of Ali as well)
Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muslims must pray (Salat) five times a day (Second pillar)?
Where in the Qur'an does it say that the Zakat must be 2.5 percent (Fourth pillar)?


Not sure why you now mention extra specifics.

Muhammad is acknowledged as Allah's Prophet in Sura 63:1 and 33:40.

And I remember prayer and Zakat were mentioned so many times when I was reading the Qur'an, but as for the specifics, I don't think they're mentioned. If your point is that the five pillars are not specifically and explicitly stated in the Qur'an the way you requested, I already agree they're not.

But do note what you quoted exactly when you asked for a source?

Quote:
Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
Establishment of the daily prayers;
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
Self-purification through fasting; and
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.


That is all indeed in the Qur'an.



MCalavera
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08 Oct 2013, 5:05 pm

wreck1 wrote:
semite means arab not jew.


Both may be considered Semites.

Of course, not all Arabs and Jews are.



MCalavera
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08 Oct 2013, 5:06 pm

Nambo wrote:
Quoting scripture from the Qur'an to demonise Islam doesn't seem a lot different to me than people who quote even more horrific teachings from the Babylonian Talmud to demonise Judaism.


You forgot the Old Testament. Nasty god you have there.



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08 Oct 2013, 6:08 pm

Here's an interesting list you should all look at:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Shia_vs_Sunni

People tend to forget that Islam is split into two major branches. It's interesting to note how the majority group seems more liberal in their beliefs than the minor group.