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puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2013, 7:53 pm

A thought occurred to me the other day when I was thinking about the cold war and the panic people had back then over communists; I asked myself who has replaced commies as the new bogeymen (and women - bogeypeople?) I could only think of Muslims.

Then I thought that whilst in some ways we can say that the panic over Islam has some parallels with the cold war fear of communism, there are differences. Then I had trouble finding a a detailed description of what those differences were.

I thought:
1. In Western Europe with Islam, whole communities are dominated by that ideology - but you could say the same about communism having influence in West back then.
2. People who profess to be social liberals often overlook Islam's shortcomings and get uncomfortable around people who point them out - but the left-wing part of the intelligentsia did the same thing with communism in Europe back them.
3. Islam (the religion as per most interpretations) is sexist and homophobic, so it offends people like me (women and queers) in ways that communism doesn't.

Only the third point really stuck. So I'm coming to a tentative conclusion that the main difference between Islamophobia (as in fear of Islam - legitimate or exaggerated) and communism is that the two ideologies are offensive to different groups of people. Communism was offensive to people who were very invested (maybe not materially, but intellectually) in capitalism and Islam is offensive to women and people who are anything except heterosexuals who think that sex is only for marriage (which actually includes most straight people in the West, but it's more offensive to people who aren't straight.)

It made me realise why exactly I'm scared of Islam, although I didn't used to be (and I've always lived alongside tonnes of Muslims) - I became more politically aware of being female and queer and I saw first-hand how bad that ideology would be for me if I had the accident of birth to be raised in it. I don't normally fall for government or media scaremongering or the 'othering' of people. I'm trying to recognise where the overreaction due to scaremongering ends and actually feeling insulted by the way the ideology oppresses people starts. This is both within myself and in society as a whole.

How does one go about making legitimate criticisms of Islam without being affected by the scaremongering?

All that stuff about Islam being an ideology that wants to dominate the globe and force a lifestyle change on everyone could be said about communism as it existed back then (although I'm aware that the Soviet Union was not a true reflection of Marxist theory.) Even if it is true inside the minds of a few crazed zealots, it's not going to happen.

If you think the comparison is a stupid one (which it may well be) - how come? Do you have any other thoughts on it?


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2013, 7:58 pm

i don't know about communism but certainly in UK it is the new IRA.

As for the cold war, I can't say for certain we backed the right horse. As much as I detest british and american involvement in muslim countries, I have no sinew of support for a global Islamic caliphate. Thats the only common ground I will have with another certain poster whose name starts with 'T'.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 14 Oct 2013, 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2013, 7:59 pm

thomas81 wrote:
i don't know about communism but certainly in UK it is the new IRA.


I thought about that, as well. On a global level, I think a cold war analogy is more accurate.


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2013, 8:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
i don't know about communism but certainly in UK it is the new IRA.


I thought about that, as well. On a global level, I think a cold war analogy is more accurate.


Sounds to me like the sort of stuff right wing demagogues would want us to believe. There is no Islamic opponent of synchronicity. Its a hivemind that can't be defeated or beaten. For every islamic insurgent or Taliban warrior thats killed a hundred more potential martyrs are racing to pick up his weapon. The Warsaw Pact could never command that sort of blind loyalty.

Perhaps more importantly, theres no M.A.D. relationship. Al Quaeda has no nuclear deterrent or equivalent. It is a sort of Viet Cong without a country, but it is no Soviet Union by any stretch. The conflict between the west and Islamic world has the potential to rage for centuries.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 14 Oct 2013, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2013, 8:13 pm

thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
i don't know about communism but certainly in UK it is the new IRA.


I thought about that, as well. On a global level, I think a cold war analogy is more accurate.


Sounds to me like the sort of stuff right wing demagogues would want us to believe. There is no Islamic opponent of synchronicity. Its a hivemind that can't be defeated or beaten.

Just as importantly, theres no M.A.D. relationship. Al Quaeda has no nuclear deterrent or equivalent. It is a sort of Viet Cong without a country, but it is no Soviet Union by any stretch.


Right wing demagogues wouldn't want us to make that comparison because if we did that we could end up comparing the current 'war on terror' on home soil to the McCarthy witch hunts (which would be embarrassing for the right.)

Isn't Saudi Arabia a bit more like the Soviet Union? And the MAD situation is more of an economic one because they need someone to sell their oil to.


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2013, 8:17 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Isn't Saudi Arabia a bit more like the Soviet Union? And the MAD situation is more of an economic one because they need someone to sell their oil to.


Saudi Arabia and the west are very much in cahoots with each other.

Britain sells arms to Saudi and the Saudi monarchy owns one sixth of the American economy.

The Soviet Union was a power of a kind of which I doubt we will see again. Which isn't necessarilly a good thing. I believe it was an important counterbalance in the world to American unilateralism. Even the Chinese aren't interested in upsetting the apple cart.


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puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2013, 8:21 pm

thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Isn't Saudi Arabia a bit more like the Soviet Union? And the MAD situation is more of an economic one because they need someone to sell their oil to.


Saudi Arabia and the west are very much in cahoots with each other.

Britain sells arms to Saudi and the Saudi monarchy owns one sixth of the American economy.

The Soviet Union was a power of a kind of which I doubt we will see again. Which isn't necessarilly a good thing. I believe it was an important counterbalance in the world to American unilateralism. Even the Chinese aren't interested in upsetting the apple cart.


I wasn't saying that KSA was much like the Soviet Union, but I do think there might be an element of economic MAD and I think they do provide a strong ideological counterbalance (although quite a horrible one) but not a counterbalance in terms of military power.


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2013, 8:23 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Isn't Saudi Arabia a bit more like the Soviet Union? And the MAD situation is more of an economic one because they need someone to sell their oil to.


Saudi Arabia and the west are very much in cahoots with each other.

Britain sells arms to Saudi and the Saudi monarchy owns one sixth of the American economy.

The Soviet Union was a power of a kind of which I doubt we will see again. Which isn't necessarilly a good thing. I believe it was an important counterbalance in the world to American unilateralism. Even the Chinese aren't interested in upsetting the apple cart.


I wasn't saying that KSA was much like the Soviet Union, but I do think there might be an element of economic MAD and I think they do provide a strong ideological counterbalance (although quite a horrible one) but not a counterbalance in terms of military power.



I think Gadaffi's Libya represented the last semblance of arab resistance to the western economic hegemony in the region (his intention to base all African currencies against an African gold dinar in lieu of the American dollar).

The KSA is basically America's whore just like the UAE, Bahrain and Qatar.


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puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2013, 8:37 pm

thomas81 wrote:


I think Gadaffi's Libya represented the last semblance of arab resistance to the western economic hegemony in the region (his intention to base all African currencies against an African gold dinar in lieu of the American dollar).

The KSA is basically America's whore just like the UAE, Bahrain and Qatar.


It's a whore that the West is addicted to - and they do organise a global network of Islamism which is an opposing ideology and an influential one at that.


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naturalplastic
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15 Oct 2013, 7:13 am

Are they our b*****s?

Or are we THEIR b*****s?

Between Riyahd, and Washington, its hard to figure out which b***h is which!

Lol!



sonofghandi
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15 Oct 2013, 9:44 am

I would have to say that the comparison is very accurate (at least here in the states). When I joined the military in 1997, many of the service members still said things like, "killing commies for mommy." After 9/11/01, no one talked about communists any more. There always has to be the big bad evil out there to keep people scared and more easily allow those in power to stay in power.

I do have a problem with the sexist/homophobic issues associated with Islam, but do not feel that these issues are any reason to decry the entire religion as an irrational and violent one. I am hopeful, as even in recent years the public opinion on homosexuality has vastly improved among many Christian groups who (less than a generation ago) openly supported limiting the rights of any non-heterosexual (and I'm not just talking about marriage equality). I feel that as more and more people worldwide gain more and more access to information on the net and get less and less of their info from their respectives states, things will improve rapidly. I am optimistic, but cautious.


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15 Oct 2013, 10:24 am

The most recent estimate of the death toll due to The Great Leap Forward lists it as the single largest genocide in the history of mankind, responsible for 42 million deaths. The most conservative estimate is as "low" as 23 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap ... ine_deaths

Of course, it isn't an official genocide, since it wasn't intentional.

Which means that a single Communist policy likely killed more people due to incompetence than Nazi Germany killed people due to intent.

And I'm not even including the Khmer Rouge, the Holodomor or the Gulag.

Islam is a significant threat to just about any human right imaginable (and the very concept of human rights, as per the Cairo Declaration from 1990), but it is a minor threat compared to the destructive force of Communism. And the global influence of Islam is likely to decrease as the oil reserves of the Middle East deplete and/or are becoming irrelevant due to alternative power sources.



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15 Oct 2013, 11:02 am

Incidentally, if we're talking about Islamic homophobia, can I begin with this?

This is Abdul Qadeer Baksh, who runs the Luton Islamic Centre. He says that "in an ideal world" gays would be executed. This interview took place last week:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Z_R1NxW_M[/youtube]

Would anyone white and non-Muslim seriously be given this kid glove treatment? In fact, wouldn't they be arrested for this? Just like the hate preachers in the East London Mosque and other places?



Last edited by Tequila on 15 Oct 2013, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

sonofghandi
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15 Oct 2013, 11:04 am

Tequila wrote:
Incidentally, if we're talking about Islamic homophobia, can I begin with this?
This is Abdul Qadeer Baksh, who runs the Luton Islamic Centre. He says that "in an ideal world" gays would be executed:


Don't forget that homophobia is not exclesive to any religion (or lack thereof).


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Tequila
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15 Oct 2013, 11:06 am

sonofghandi wrote:
Don't forget that homophobia is not exclesive to any religion (or lack thereof).


So, should gays in Britain be more concerned living in a white middle-class retirement area and perhaps very occasionally overhearing doddery old right-wing Christians who mutter under their breath about there being no gays in their day or living near the Luton Islamic Centre, who has a man running it who specifically believes that they should be executed and legions of young Muslims who go to this (and similar) centres who have the same beliefs?



Last edited by Tequila on 15 Oct 2013, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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15 Oct 2013, 11:13 am

GGPViper wrote:
And the global influence of Islam is likely to decrease as the oil reserves of the Middle East deplete and/or are becoming irrelevant due to alternative power sources.


Hopefully, when the oil dries up or becomes irrelevant, Western society will then take it upon itself to help destroy the stranglehold that Wahhabism/Deobandism/Iranian religious fundamentalism has on Western Muslims, and helps to usher in a more secularised, integrated and happier community for all of us.