About the Asperger Entitlement Syndrome

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qawer
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15 Dec 2013, 6:31 am

I have realized the stubborn attitude I (and I believe others on this board can relate) have that I deserve to be treated well and fairly goes hand in hand with a big responsibility.

The fundamental thing is that many people with AS do not want to be hold on a leash, i.e. told what to do and not to do, basically how to behave - they do not want to have commanding leaders who are, in return of the favour of being led/helped, allowed to punish unwanted behaviour.

Those of us with that attitude basically have that attitude because our self-esteem is built on not having (unfair) leaders. This means noone is better than us, because they are not in a position to give us commands - this makes you on the same level as everybody else, be that office bosses, politicians or presidents.

What this attitude requires is the ability to be completely independent. It is not fair to insist on not having leaders punishing bad behaviour while at the same time not being able to survive on your own, huh?


What is your take on this issue?



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15 Dec 2013, 7:06 am

Don't think it is an issue of entitlement. It does seem weird to me how people just accept things from those above them without question or grumble then still accept it because it is an easier option. I really don't think AS people make very good sheep.

Like what you said about the the idea of it being a favor to someone to tell them what to do since so many people love to have decisions made for them. The thought of doing this disgusts me.

There are very few people I respect on the level of if they tell me to do something it would be something I would want to do/know and I can trust them not to take advantage. Everyone else is subject to me questioning them. I would expect people to question me because if I failed to explain it well enough or create the best way to do it I would want it to be improved. Most if not all people can't make this logical step I won't think I am beyond you questioning me just because I happen to have lived longer or get farther in a career.


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qawer
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15 Dec 2013, 7:28 am

Wafflemarine wrote:
Like what you said about the the idea of it being a favor to someone to tell them what to do since so many people love to have decisions made for them. The thought of doing this disgusts me.


Hi Wafflemarine.

What I mean is that you sometimes have to put up with being told what to do. One typically has bosses at one's job - you have to please them to some degree if you want to keep your job! You can of course find another job, but there you will just get another boss, unless you can make your own business.

The more dependent one is, there more is one obliged to put up with being bossed around. Because if one does not obey, those favours one receives through the dependence will vanish.



Wafflemarine
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15 Dec 2013, 7:47 am

The situation you are explaining is for everyone. I doubt anyone would like a situation where they were so dependent on someone else that they had to put up with their BS.

Then again I have only worked jobs where I knew what I had to complete for the day and did it boss/supervisors existed pretty much only to relay changes in what needed to be done otherwise they could not be there for large chunks of the day and it would make almost no difference.

I do think AS people excel in situations where they can be left alone to get a job done with minimal to no interference from others.


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15 Dec 2013, 8:50 am

Not sure I entirely get what your saying. I don't see how its bad to want to be treated well and think you deserve to be....and just because someone needs help in life doesn't mean they should see themselves as 'below' those who could provide the help. And then there is the question of who defines bad behavior by bad behavior do you mean abnormal or behaviors that actually hurt others.

I suppose I have not seen that many autistics claiming to be entitled to behave however they want with no consequences, but I think its only natural those of us who do need outside help don't want to be oppressed by those providing that help. People still need some independence and room to be themselves needing outside help does not mean you have to then become totally submissive and do whatever your told regardless of what you feel or think about it.


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15 Dec 2013, 8:59 am

I have no problem with certain forms of authority. Having said that, it bothers me being told what to do, and criticism bothers me. I have to make a hard effort for it not to. I've always been this way.


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15 Dec 2013, 9:29 am

I respectfully disagree with the OP, based on my understanding of the argument made in the OP.

I don't believe that there is any difference in underlying views towards authority between those on the spectrum and those who are not. There may be individual differences based on such things as social exclusion and social anxiety, but I just can't agree with what appears to be a categorical argument.

Everyone has occasional (and often more than occasional) complaints about authority figures, but also want authority to be used on their behalf. That's not limited to those on the spectrum by any means.


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15 Dec 2013, 10:45 am

I agree with AgentPalpatine. Plenty of NTs are rebellious and disobedient, and plenty of autistics are rule-followers and subservient. This is about personal temperament and not AS.



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15 Dec 2013, 11:40 am

arielhawksquill wrote:
I agree with AgentPalpatine. Plenty of NTs are rebellious and disobedient, and plenty of autistics are rule-followers and subservient. This is about personal temperament and not AS.


If I could differentiate it in my <subjective> experience....

(meaning just stuff I have observed, and of course does not apply to everyone)

Autistics are disrespectful of authority based only on social status, they are not disrespectful of what they feel is proper authority or earned. Also it is the rule following and subservience that could make an autistic rebel against authority that is bending or breaking rules only for some, this also comes from the obsession with fairness.

NTs in turn often go through a rebellious phase during the teens where they are rebelling against authority just to establish limits and see how far they can push things, they agree the authority is legit and they aren't doing it for reasons of fairness.
This can also be a point of personal identity, feeling like an "outlaw" etc.

These are just observations I've made, and I am not claiming they apply in all cases. Just that the problems autistic have with authority are rarely the juvenile disobedience NTs go through.



bumble
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15 Dec 2013, 12:22 pm

Why would I have a problem with being told what to do by my boss? I am paid to follow orders at work when I am working.

I do like to have room to do things in my own way if possible but this is because I can't always cope with or make use of the methods they want me to use. Also in some areas I really do know what I am doing and can often see a more effective way of going about things.

I am not trying to be difficult...

Either their method causes me too much distress (physically or emotionally) or I can see a better way of going about things that would be more beneficial and/or would save time.

In the later case I make a suggestion but will do it the bosses way if I must and I am able.

I actually drive myself to the brink of exhaustion trying to keep people happy as I don't like disharmony, conflict and discord. I also feel bad if I upset or hurt someone.

My tendency to be stubborn mostly manifests as perseverance. I have a tendency not to give up long past the point I probably should have done. I will keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying and trying until I become nothing more than a sad exhausted broken down sight that everyone seems to pity but no one wants to be with.



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15 Dec 2013, 1:44 pm

I think it helps to "pick your battles" and distinguish between slightly unfair/idiotic and VERY unfair/idiotic. As we AS people tend to hyperfocus on a single thing for long periods, we do best when we focus on the WORST of it.

We've probably all heard the line "life's not always fair." For the longest time I thought that was simply an excuse people used to knowingly BE unfair, especially towards me. My current stance on this line: yes, life's not always fair in that we have clueless/egotistical/psychopathic bosses and other authority figures. There's evil in the world. And even with the BEST social skills, we're not going to stop 100.0% of it. But that's not an excuse to either be unfair yourself or not to try to right wrongs! If everyone actively tried to BE fair, the world would be A LOT LESS unfair!!

The big key point I've learned in advocating for change is to resist the urge to yell, swear and otherwise express anger. After all, that's pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME as NT's do to us when we don't understand social norms that are "obvious" to them!! With yelling, egotistical people get defensive and bullies get off on it. People successfully speaking up on my behalf as a kid said things very calmly to the unfair people in question, even though I thought at the time that they were being way, way, way too soft!!


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15 Dec 2013, 2:02 pm

Interesting topic.

I personally have had issues with authority, particularly in the working world (which is where I typically encounter authority figures). I do realize that, in the working world, I am entering into an agreement to trade my time (and experience, knowhow, etc) for their money. But, I hate being told what to do, how to do it and what to think.

Now, I have no problems with authority figures that I highly respect. Though, those people are few and far between.



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15 Dec 2013, 3:07 pm

I think that demanding freedom is always a risk, but it's a risk worth taking.

Think of what happened to African American slaves in the United States after they were freed. They lost the (limited) protection of their masters, while at the same time still facing prejudice. They lost their (somewhat) guaranteed meals. They had to find work on their own. Most had no experience in making their own decisions. Many had no advanced skills. It would have been a difficult transition. Difficult--but worth it.

To accept the limited life of a "pet cripple", acquiescing to non-disabled people and accepting their norm as universally right, is not something we should have to do to survive. But, at the same time, we can still acknowledge the difficulty of becoming your own person, demanding your place in the world, demanding equality. It's hard and scary. We may not be able to do it on our own--which is why we need to support each other. Once again, though, I think it's worth it.


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15 Dec 2013, 3:29 pm

qawer wrote:
I have realized the stubborn attitude I (and I believe others on this board can relate) have that I deserve to be treated well and fairly goes hand in hand with a big responsibility.

The fundamental thing is that many people with AS do not want to be hold on a leash, i.e. told what to do and not to do, basically how to behave - they do not want to have commanding leaders who are, in return of the favour of being led/helped, allowed to punish unwanted behaviour.

Those of us with that attitude basically have that attitude because our self-esteem is built on not having (unfair) leaders. This means noone is better than us, because they are not in a position to give us commands - this makes you on the same level as everybody else, be that office bosses, politicians or presidents.

What this attitude requires is the ability to be completely independent. It is not fair to insist on not having leaders punishing bad behaviour while at the same time not being able to survive on your own, huh?


What is your take on this issue?


I think your argument is flawed. You don't have to be completely independent to not have hierarchy. It's completely reasonable to expect help from others when you need it without being in their debt because of it. If all cooperation was a transaction like that, society wouldn't be possible.



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15 Dec 2013, 4:08 pm

bumble wrote:
Why would I have a problem with being told what to do by my boss? I am paid to follow orders at work when I am working.

I do like to have room to do things in my own way if possible but this is because I can't always cope with or make use of the methods they want me to use. Also in some areas I really do know what I am doing and can often see a more effective way of going about things.

I am not trying to be difficult...

Either their method causes me too much distress (physically or emotionally) or I can see a better way of going about things that would be more beneficial and/or would save time.

In the later case I make a suggestion but will do it the bosses way if I must and I am able.

I actually drive myself to the brink of exhaustion trying to keep people happy as I don't like disharmony, conflict and discord. I also feel bad if I upset or hurt someone.

My tendency to be stubborn mostly manifests as perseverance. I have a tendency not to give up long past the point I probably should have done. I will keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying and trying until I become nothing more than a sad exhausted broken down sight that everyone seems to pity but no one wants to be with.


I am pretty much like you in all these respects. I did have a boss that saw that I stuck with things to long so he said you will be fired if you do not report it to me when you get stuck. He also said sometimes when you get yourself so stuck you need to destroy everything and start from scratch. I still am to stubborn sometimes but other times I follow that advice.


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15 Dec 2013, 4:44 pm

I never had problems with authority. In fact I believed parents, and teachers could tell you what to do and do whatever they want you to do. That was my perception then and I wanted to be an authority too so I could be in control and have things go my way. But I found out in my teens that isn't the case. I probably didn't like authority then but the only reason why I respected it was because I didn't want a consequence. I would feel sorry for other kids in my class when they would lose recess or not get an ice cream cone or not go on a field trip or lose toy time. So I would say I never had a problem with it. I think it's pretty normal for kids to not like authority. In fact I needed rules or else I wouldn't know how to act or what to do and it would all be chaos for me because I wouldn't know how I am supposed to act in a situation and I would have behavior problems. I didn't have the ability to give myself rules. I could never relate to people who have issues with it and not respect it. I mean are their bosses/teachers really that bad or are they just mentally ill? I never understood it. I was taught in my teens it's a mental illness to not follow any rules and to not care about the consequences so no matter what the parent does, the kid is unable to learn because they do not care and don't care if they are punished or not.


I think the only time I ever had issues with authority was when I was a pre teen only because I was being treated different and I wanted things to be equal and fair and I wanted the rules to apply to everyone and not just me only. But I had no problems at home because rules were meant to be followed by my brothers too and they didn't get away with stuff like kids did at my school. Now I think this happened because I was on the IEP and rules tend to be different for special needs kids which I think is unfair. Rules are more enforced for kids with it than for normal kids. Punishing me was ineffective because all it did was it made me fight more and I saw the infairness and it just make me angry and depressed. The staff was too ignorant to realize if they would have made other kids follow the rules too and enforce it on them also, I wouldn't have had "behavior issues." It was like segregation. Instead of blacks vs whites, it was special needs vs normies. They fought, so was I. They got equal treatment, I was trying to get it too. I still don't think it was the authority I had issues with, it was the unfairness. If something is unfair and I feel I am being treated different, I feel the urge to rebel and fight it.


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