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slave
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03 Jan 2014, 1:01 am

Thanks.

who is Roger and what does Big O refer to?
sry if it's a dumb question...i'm really tired



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03 Jan 2014, 3:15 am

Big O is an animation, a ten story robot that Roger drives. Mostly they fight other robots. It calls for something like that, with snow shoes, as this problem is out of human scale.



ruveyn
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03 Jan 2014, 10:05 am

Inventor wrote:
They are not saying much, but one diagram in the article, shows the spent fuel pool is in the attic? Forth floor.

These buildings are too hot to enter, much less remove 89 tons of spent fuel rods, very carefully.

A lot of unknowns, spent fuel is still hot, has to be stored spaced, and under water. It is moved with a crane, if it is still working, and not to hot to survive running. Otherwise, Up four flights of stairs, in a building no one goes in, too hot.

Besides that, some were fueled with MX, Plutonium. That has a half life of 24,360 years. Consider that times the 400 tons of water a day they are storing in tanks.

They will not become the bomb, but they can cause steam explosions, what happened to the Russians.

Spent rods are stored so they cannot touch, and underwater, because more mass, or less cooling, they melt.

The steam seen coming from the buildings is coming from below, where the reactor core melted, or from the spent fuel pool. from below is too hot to get near, and the pool would be the start of the rods melting.

The whole industry has the same problem, all waste is in storage, since 1945. Most is stored at the reactors, but in outside pools. Keeping it in the attic seems insane.

Of course Japan can top any insane you ever heard of, such as building near the ocean on an earth quake fault, on top of an old river bed, instead of solid rock. Fueling an old reactor with MX, which is experimental, and having the backup power in the cellar.

One diesel backup, when in the hills above, are a dozen cities with water, that a gravity fed pipeline would make a good second backup. In the case of something that dare not fail, like Atomic Bombs, there are more than three safety backups.

They have been selling it as an event in decline, but sometime the wind does not blow toward the ocean, and inland towns and cities are becoming comtaminated. The steam plumes could be from the melt hitting groundwater. If that is the case, there is a lot more to come.

My only hope was that Roger would call up Big O, but that has not happened.

Removing the spent fuel, and shuting down the other reactors, and removing their fuel would help, but nothing like that has ever been done. Rods are moved by automated machines that work, from the factory, to containment. That is shipped by truck to reactors, where automated machines remove the old core to the cooling pool, and remove the new from containment, and put them in the reactor.

As it all gets stored on site, there is no method of removing it from the cooling pools. There is no place to move it to. Add damaged buildings, a radioactive steam volcano, and humans dying from even getting close, it is a problem.

A five story high shielded machine, that could peel off the roof, lift out rods one at a time, put them in it's own cooling pool, and leave the area, to deposit them somewhere else, then return and clean out other buildings? It would sink in the soft ground they built on. It would take rails, major construction.

So far they have been good at standing around, filling tanks like that could stop a leak, and issuing press releases.

None of the experts has an answer.

A minor species of ape has a two hundred year industrial culture, and made things that need to be carefully stored for 200,000 years. We knew if it ever got loose there would be no stopping it.


We could dump all of our radioactive waste into the Marianas Trench with is over 6.5 miles deep. Talk about putting the hot stuff in a deep enough pool!! !!

But that is a waste. We should be building breeder reactors the use so called radioactive waste convert fresh U-238 to fissile U-235 and make lots of hotwater to produce electricity.;

Anyone who says we have an energy shortage is either a liar or an ignoramus.

ruveyn



slave
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03 Jan 2014, 11:39 am

Inventor wrote:
Big O is an animation, a ten story robot that Roger drives. Mostly they fight other robots. It calls for something like that, with snow shoes, as this problem is out of human scale.


oic
:)



slave
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03 Jan 2014, 11:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
Inventor wrote:
They are not saying much, but one diagram in the article, shows the spent fuel pool is in the attic? Forth floor.

These buildings are too hot to enter, much less remove 89 tons of spent fuel rods, very carefully.

A lot of unknowns, spent fuel is still hot, has to be stored spaced, and under water. It is moved with a crane, if it is still working, and not to hot to survive running. Otherwise, Up four flights of stairs, in a building no one goes in, too hot.

Besides that, some were fueled with MX, Plutonium. That has a half life of 24,360 years. Consider that times the 400 tons of water a day they are storing in tanks.

They will not become the bomb, but they can cause steam explosions, what happened to the Russians.

Spent rods are stored so they cannot touch, and underwater, because more mass, or less cooling, they melt.

The steam seen coming from the buildings is coming from below, where the reactor core melted, or from the spent fuel pool. from below is too hot to get near, and the pool would be the start of the rods melting.

The whole industry has the same problem, all waste is in storage, since 1945. Most is stored at the reactors, but in outside pools. Keeping it in the attic seems insane.

Of course Japan can top any insane you ever heard of, such as building near the ocean on an earth quake fault, on top of an old river bed, instead of solid rock. Fueling an old reactor with MX, which is experimental, and having the backup power in the cellar.

One diesel backup, when in the hills above, are a dozen cities with water, that a gravity fed pipeline would make a good second backup. In the case of something that dare not fail, like Atomic Bombs, there are more than three safety backups.

They have been selling it as an event in decline, but sometime the wind does not blow toward the ocean, and inland towns and cities are becoming comtaminated. The steam plumes could be from the melt hitting groundwater. If that is the case, there is a lot more to come.

My only hope was that Roger would call up Big O, but that has not happened.

Removing the spent fuel, and shuting down the other reactors, and removing their fuel would help, but nothing like that has ever been done. Rods are moved by automated machines that work, from the factory, to containment. That is shipped by truck to reactors, where automated machines remove the old core to the cooling pool, and remove the new from containment, and put them in the reactor.

As it all gets stored on site, there is no method of removing it from the cooling pools. There is no place to move it to. Add damaged buildings, a radioactive steam volcano, and humans dying from even getting close, it is a problem.

A five story high shielded machine, that could peel off the roof, lift out rods one at a time, put them in it's own cooling pool, and leave the area, to deposit them somewhere else, then return and clean out other buildings? It would sink in the soft ground they built on. It would take rails, major construction.

So far they have been good at standing around, filling tanks like that could stop a leak, and issuing press releases.

None of the experts has an answer.

A minor species of ape has a two hundred year industrial culture, and made things that need to be carefully stored for 200,000 years. We knew if it ever got loose there would be no stopping it.


We could dump all of our radioactive waste into the Marianas Trench with is over 6.5 miles deep. Talk about putting the hot stuff in a deep enough pool!! !!

But that is a waste. We should be building breeder reactors the use so called radioactive waste convert fresh U-238 to fissile U-235 and make lots of hotwater to produce electricity.;

Anyone who says we have an energy shortage is either a liar or an ignoramus.

ruveyn


or use Thorium.
or use Fusion.

you last sentence is profoundly true...energy scarcity is 100% nonsense.



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03 Jan 2014, 1:50 pm

This is an industry created to use the waste produced, by the Bomb Factory.

Waste was piling up, so they came up with some quick designs for reactors.

The Japanese models were Westinghouse designs for ships.

A twenty year life was considered forever.

No one considered the cost of decommisioning.

No one had any idea what the effects would be over time, this is the product test.

We now know that steel and concrete designed to last a hundred years, decays much faster when subject to radiation.

Knowing that, the license to operate was still extended beyond the twenty year design limit.

What was the cutoff, became the renewal period.

No one would insure them, so that was put on the public.

None have been built in twenty-five years, most are over forty.

It was a 1950s and 60s answer to what to do with waste, claiming national security and a no bid exclusive contract.

None have ever been decommisioned. Some of the subs have been shut down, the reactor section cut out, and moved to Hanford for long, long term storage.

We cannot agree on long term storage for low level wastes, Yucca Flats.

There is no plan for spent fuel rods. They get stored on site forever.

In California reactors were built along the coast, on fault lines. All across the north, reactors were built in the path of the next ice age. Three waves of several mile high ice came through several times in the last 50,000 years.

Considering how easy it is to ship electric power, all of this should have been confined to the back yard of the Bomb Factory. Dealing with the waste seems part of the bomb making contract.

Power reactors cannot be torn down, they will all have to be entombed in place. No one knows what to do with the spent fuel. We also have 25,000 ageing bombs.

After all these years, there is no plan to deal with a single meltdown. The plan was denial, and claiming higher knowledge in Press Releases.

Well, we are there now,



chris5000
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03 Jan 2014, 3:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Inventor wrote:
They are not saying much, but one diagram in the article, shows the spent fuel pool is in the attic? Forth floor.

These buildings are too hot to enter, much less remove 89 tons of spent fuel rods, very carefully.

A lot of unknowns, spent fuel is still hot, has to be stored spaced, and under water. It is moved with a crane, if it is still working, and not to hot to survive running. Otherwise, Up four flights of stairs, in a building no one goes in, too hot.

Besides that, some were fueled with MX, Plutonium. That has a half life of 24,360 years. Consider that times the 400 tons of water a day they are storing in tanks.

They will not become the bomb, but they can cause steam explosions, what happened to the Russians.

Spent rods are stored so they cannot touch, and underwater, because more mass, or less cooling, they melt.

The steam seen coming from the buildings is coming from below, where the reactor core melted, or from the spent fuel pool. from below is too hot to get near, and the pool would be the start of the rods melting.

The whole industry has the same problem, all waste is in storage, since 1945. Most is stored at the reactors, but in outside pools. Keeping it in the attic seems insane.

Of course Japan can top any insane you ever heard of, such as building near the ocean on an earth quake fault, on top of an old river bed, instead of solid rock. Fueling an old reactor with MX, which is experimental, and having the backup power in the cellar.

One diesel backup, when in the hills above, are a dozen cities with water, that a gravity fed pipeline would make a good second backup. In the case of something that dare not fail, like Atomic Bombs, there are more than three safety backups.

They have been selling it as an event in decline, but sometime the wind does not blow toward the ocean, and inland towns and cities are becoming comtaminated. The steam plumes could be from the melt hitting groundwater. If that is the case, there is a lot more to come.

My only hope was that Roger would call up Big O, but that has not happened.

Removing the spent fuel, and shuting down the other reactors, and removing their fuel would help, but nothing like that has ever been done. Rods are moved by automated machines that work, from the factory, to containment. That is shipped by truck to reactors, where automated machines remove the old core to the cooling pool, and remove the new from containment, and put them in the reactor.

As it all gets stored on site, there is no method of removing it from the cooling pools. There is no place to move it to. Add damaged buildings, a radioactive steam volcano, and humans dying from even getting close, it is a problem.

A five story high shielded machine, that could peel off the roof, lift out rods one at a time, put them in it's own cooling pool, and leave the area, to deposit them somewhere else, then return and clean out other buildings? It would sink in the soft ground they built on. It would take rails, major construction.

So far they have been good at standing around, filling tanks like that could stop a leak, and issuing press releases.

None of the experts has an answer.

A minor species of ape has a two hundred year industrial culture, and made things that need to be carefully stored for 200,000 years. We knew if it ever got loose there would be no stopping it.


the genset did not get flooded out contrary to popular belief, read the official report the switching gear failed to engage. the generators were in a sealed room where very little water entered and they were running but without the switching gear they are useless

theres a good chance stuxnet the worm that destroys machinery was involved in the failure, the motive in there they were planning to sell uranium to iran

it would explain why they were getting normal pressure readings while the pressure vessel had failed and many other problems



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03 Jan 2014, 4:08 pm

slave wrote:

or use Thorium.
or use Fusion.

you last sentence is profoundly true...energy scarcity is 100% nonsense.


Controlled fusion is 30 years in the future. 60 years ago it was 30 years in the future. A hundred years from now it will be 30 years. in the future.

ruveyn



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03 Jan 2014, 4:18 pm

Sorry to pour cold water on things, but there is a problem with what the inventor has written.

The fuel has had several years to cool off and become less radioactive since the earth quake, the heat released in the used fuel during the core melting accident came from the decay of the short lived fission products. These have now decayed away, so the heat output from the fuel is much smaller.

Now if the water supply to the reactors was cut off it would be much harder to get the fuel to heat up again to the point of melting it. So I think that a remelting of the fuel is unlikely at this point. The melting of the fuel into a big lump at the bottom of the reactors which then melted its way out of the bottom of the reactors has made a shape and form which is unlikely to ever go critical again. The fuel is not arranged with water in a way which favours criticality so it is unlikely that fresh fission products will ever be formed at Fukushima.


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03 Jan 2014, 4:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
slave wrote:

or use Thorium.
or use Fusion.

you last sentence is profoundly true...energy scarcity is 100% nonsense.


Controlled fusion is 30 years in the future. 60 years ago it was 30 years in the future. A hundred years from now it will be 30 years. in the future.

ruveyn


I hope you are wrong, but you are likely correct.
The facts of History strongly adduce your prediction.



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03 Jan 2014, 5:34 pm

Regarding fusion I think that ruveyn is right, the fusion machines seem to consume vast amounts of energy and money and yet they do not give out the endless supply of energy we are promised.


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03 Jan 2014, 10:14 pm

slave wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
slave wrote:

or use Thorium.
or use Fusion.

you last sentence is profoundly true...energy scarcity is 100% nonsense.


Controlled fusion is 30 years in the future. 60 years ago it was 30 years in the future. A hundred years from now it will be 30 years. in the future.

ruveyn


I hope you are wrong, but you are likely correct.
The facts of History strongly adduce your prediction.

20 years ago I took a class in plasma physics taught by a prof who was working on sustained fusion and he said the same thing. He also said they (he and his group) were going back to congress (for money) and saying they were within a factor of 2 of some milestone over and over, seemingly endlessly.



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04 Jan 2014, 1:00 am

[quote="Woodpecker"]Sorry to pour cold water on things, but there is a problem with what the inventor has written.

The fuel has had several years to cool off and become less radioactive since the earth quake, the heat released in the used fuel during the core melting accident came from the decay of the short lived fission products. These have now decayed away, so the heat output from the fuel is much smaller.

Now if the water supply to the reactors was cut off it would be much harder to get the fuel to heat up again to the point of melting it. So I think that a remelting of the fuel is unlikely at this point. The melting of the fuel into a big lump at the bottom of the reactors which then melted its way out of the bottom of the reactors has made a shape and form which is unlikely to ever go critical again. The fuel is not arranged with water in a way which favours criticality so it is unlikely that fresh fission products will ever be formed at Fukushima.[/quote

????????? The largest steam plume was released several days ago. The spent fuel pool is in that building, and if it loses water cooling, it can melt and burn. A pool fire can release more in the air than a reactor meltdown.

Three cores have broken free, and are somewhere beneath the buildings. Each was 90 tons, and each had a spent fuel pool holding twice as much.

I disagree about this running down, but I am down wind.

The 400 tons a day of water they are putting in tanks is ground water, on it's way to the ocean. They are going to run out of tanks.

This is something new, an experiment in the unthinkable.



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06 Jan 2014, 4:29 pm

I am still not sure what the inventor is concerned about the fuel in the three reactors is still very radioactive but the far reduced heat production makes it less of a threat today than it was when the big earth quake occured.

What mechanism are you thinking about which will release radioactivity from the Fukushima site ?


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07 Jan 2014, 6:55 pm

270 tons of fuel have melted down, and are somewhere below three reactors.

400 tons of water that is strongly radioactive is being put in tanks every day, from the ground water, and the rest is running into the ocean.

Steam plumes from below the reactors are erupting through the reactor buildings.

The evacuation zone in Japan is still growing.

At Chernoble one reactor had a melt down, which spread out over the basement floor and became a solid. it was covered in Boron and concrete, dry storage.

In Japan, three reactors burned through the floor, and the fuel is in the earth, in a river bed.

Spent fuel is stored underwater not just for cooling. it is an Oxide, and like Thermite, can burn, and can generate enough heat to be self starting. Water keeps it from burning by cooling and depriving it of air.

Each reactor has a spent fuel pool, in the attic, with 180 tons, and there is one more nearby.

A River Runs Through It. There is no capturing hundreds of tons of fuel, or even the radioactive water.

While some elements do have a short life, in others the half life is over a hundred thousand years.

This river is going to Run Hot for several hundred thousand years. The ocean, the bottom, and the sea life will become more radioactive. Like DDT and Dioxin, it will work it's way up the life chain, and fish migrate, as does water from Japan to the west coast of North America.

The air also migrates, and a pool fire is more of a danger to the American West Coast, than it is to Japan.

After one plume into the air the Russians contained their meltdown, and kept it out of the ground water.

Japan is an ongoing rising disaster.



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22 Jan 2014, 12:00 am

Inventor wrote:
While some elements do have a short life, in others the half life is over a hundred thousand years.


I'm not an expert in such matters but wouldn't the elements with extremely long half-lives be far less radioactive than the ones with short half-lives? Wouldn't the most radioactive of elements already have been through their half-lives several times over in the last 34 months and now be less radioactive?