continued from "took advice interesting results"

Page 1 of 1 [ 7 posts ] 

buffinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 651
Location: Illinois

24 Jan 2014, 9:08 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Bad idea, especially between jews and muslims.


Off-top side question: Since your Torah tells you that you have to take the Land of Canaan (Palestine) by force and drive out all Canaanites from there, and since the Jews (and evangelists) today justify taking Palestine because their "ancestors" were there before them (only half of the ancestors of Israelis today , the Jew Arabs, because studies show that Ashkenazi Jews are originally Europeans, not Middle Easterns). Based on that logic and based on the Torah , not the Quran, aren't the descendants of the Canaanites (Lebanese, Syrians, Palestinians) have the right to retake their land? The Jews have invaded this land twice, first time with Joshua , and the second time with the Zionist movement.


The primary purpose of religion is to con fools from the fruits of their labor and to direct that labor in a way that benefits the theocratic elite. It is just a ponzie scheme meant to funnel wealth and power at the top and conveniently only rewards those at the bottom upon their death or even for their death in service of those few. People who are religious laymen share one commonality: the supreme propensity for manipulation and willingness to accept the fantastic as fact. I would also like to point out that I consider much of science to be a religious pursuit with similar failings to separate deluded fantasy from fiction by accepting untested theory as canon, whereas religion accepts untested canon as fact.

Insofar as the de jure claim to Canaan the claim is equally valid for both Jewish Semites, non-Semitic Jews in residence and the corresponding Semitic and non-Semitic factions of Palestinians, Arabs, Zoroastrians, and other indigenous and transplanted peoples over the centuries. The Jews hold power because the brokered a powerful alliance and have no more or less right to the land as any other claimants but in holding the land for over a generation have the most recent and thus the strongest claim regardless of historical precedent. Conversely, the ousted factions are equally valid in their claims to the area. Being racially Jewish does not inherently make me sympathetic to the genocides of gaza and the west bank nor the racially biased legal system the Israely government had enacted. Despite my abhorrence for the unjust legislative and judicial systems in place, I understand their purpose as the balance between powers does not lend to shared power but rather to obliteration or subjugation of the opposing factions and in this case the Jewish party took preemptive steps to rig the system. I would like to point out that in Jerusalem itself there is at least the attempt at cohabitation, though I understand my perspective is skewed by indoctrinated bias from a young age that may make this seem more sunshine and rainbows than the reality.

I am not a torah scholar, but as I understand it the torah does not command the obliteration of the Canaanites, it documents it. The torah commands us to go to Canaan much as the Koran commands Muslims to go to Medina (EDIT: community chest: unfavorable market conditions, move holy land to Mecca asap). The reality of the situation is that in the time of genesis the Mennonites and Canaanites were not pleased to have a migrant host moving through their lands and the migrant host was wary of betrayal (see "Lone Survivor"). The torah specifically states that anyone who kills in the name of reclaiming Canaan is not eligible to rule there and possibly not even to live there (memory shaky). (I may be mixing up father and son) This is why David abstained from the sack of pre-jeruselum and king Solomon was banished from the kingdom after his successful siege and willingly accepted exile leaving his son to rule.

The torah documents the annihilation and assimilation of those living on the eastern mountains of Canaan and in the central basin that is now Jerusalem. It commands us to live there, but not necessarily to rule there. It does not command the use of force, it condemns the use of force while not firmly prohibiting it. The use of force and rule is the prerogative of the living, not of the lore.


[Mod. edit: continued from here, if anyone else was wondering: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt250394.html ]


_________________
AQ: 31
Your Aspie score: 135 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 63 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,739
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

25 Jan 2014, 3:11 am

Sounds like religion endorsed manifest destiny.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

25 Jan 2014, 2:59 pm

buffinator, I actually believe the the ancient jews in Palestine and in Arab countries are actually descendants of Canaanites, and their ancestors were actually Southern Phoenicians/Canaanites, there were actually theories (with good amount of evidences) that Judaism might have developed from Canaanite religion into a separate cult, there are also strong evidences of gradual progress within the ancient hebrews from polytheism to Monolatry (worshiping of one god without denying other gods) to finally monotheism. For instance "EL" is the God king in the ancient Canaanite religion, and it also means God in in the ancient Torah.

However, the Jews themselves (All jews, including Semitic jews) refute this because they don't want to be related to Canaanites, they would rather believe that they were a different People came from outside Canaan to invade it because God told them it should be their land, and this is the modern Jewish excuse (of most jews at least) for Israel, so whether they were really Canaanites or not is really irrelevant in their case.

I don' think the European Jews have any rightful claim to Palestine, buffinator, despite they were the core of the Zionist movement (Arab jews only fled later to Israel after increasing conflict between Jews and Muslims due to Israel). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... _countries The anti-jewish actions that caused to leave were wrong back then but they were all triggered by Israel aggressions against the Palestinians at the end of the day.

I disagree with you that they should be be included, Israel started basically as a extension of European colonialism (except it's Jewish instead of Christian) and an another example of White supremacy.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 25 Jan 2014, 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,739
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

25 Jan 2014, 3:34 pm

Radical Zionists can deny their kinship to the ancient Canaanites and the modern Palestinians all they want, but linguists, historians, archeologists, and DNA scientists say otherwise.
As for whether the Israelis have any right to be in the Levant can be argued from now till the cows come home. But the simple fact of the matter is, there is no way anyone can uproot either the Israeli or Palestinian populations - they're stuck with each other.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

25 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm

^ only 9 countries refused the Palestinian States solution (Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Panama, Palau, United States), while 138 countries including Arab countries were in favor. It's Israel and its allies who are refusing to live side by side and want to keep uprooting the Palestinian identity, not the Palestinians and the majority of the world.



buffinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 651
Location: Illinois

25 Jan 2014, 7:06 pm

the reason for the refusal is military strategic rather than political. The areas portioned out for the Palestinian state, such as the golan heights are isrealy military conquests that were taken during various conflicts like the 6-day war and yom kippur war that serve as strategic weakpoints when in enemy hands and their possession is mostly entirely militarily motivated.

Israel has been attacked by ground and air... what is it 27 times?.. in it's short history in open conflict by neighboring states and so controlling the battle-scape of it's borders is very important. The two-state solution essentially creates a tank highway to Jerusalem and other major cities which is why the rival states are so emphatic about the two-state solution. The general consensus of north African and Arab Muslims that I have met in person is that complete obliteration is the only solution to the problem of Jews in Israel. Unfortunately the consensus of Jews from Israel I have met is much the same going the other way due to the mutual atrocities that have been traded for over a generation at this point.


Bo, what is your frame of reference? it helps to know who I am talking to.
I'm an American raised suburban liberal reform Jew turned atheist at the age of three from a mixed affluent background.


_________________
AQ: 31
Your Aspie score: 135 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 63 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie


The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

26 Jan 2014, 1:26 pm

^27 times? lol Lebanon was bombed more than 1000 times in the 2006 war alone.


Quote:
the reason for the refusal is military strategic rather than political. The areas portioned out for the Palestinian state, such as the golan heights are isrealy military conquests that were taken during various conflicts like the 6-day war and yom kippur war that serve as strategic weakpoints when in enemy hands and their possession is mostly entirely militarily motivated.


Strategic only? Lol
Image

You have literally ate 90% of their land like a swarm of locusts, not just strategic areas.

Quote:
The two-state solution essentially creates a tank highway to Jerusalem and other major cities which is why the rival states are so emphatic about the two-state solution.


This is a paranoid fear - Arab states know well that any war of obliteration, after the two-state formation, would lead to a world war and it wouldn't be in their favor because it would certainly be against the UN deal, and hence their action would be totally unjustified.

Your logic is "Let's keep the Palestinians prisoners in narrow lands and keep them stateless for good because MAYBE otherwise we go extinct". Well your logic also can countered by Arabs as well : "Your existence as it is now, strategically strong, MAYBE will be great a risk for our existence". And hey, the MAJORITY of the wold, not just the Arabs, want the creation of a Palestinian state, so your paranoid thoughts are irrelevant. Wasn't that a common same excuse used for Israel creation? (the majority of the nations wanted the creation of Israel back then without taking in consideration the Arabs/Palestinians' fears, what goes around comes around, baby)

Quote:
The general consensus of north African and Arab Muslims that I have met in person is that complete obliteration is the only solution to the problem of Jews in Israel. Unfortunately the consensus of Jews from Israel I have met is much the same going the other way due to the mutual atrocities that have been traded for over a generation at this point.


Just common people expressing their hatred toward the other side, rulers are wiser than that.


I am a Lebanese Atheist from a Shia family.