Simon Baron-Cohen: Aspergers Less Empathetic than Psycopaths

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EQ do not show the real level of empathy. It is possible that show only the self image on the social domain.
Because the human behaviour is one of my special interests, I have scored 70 on EQ. And because I am a visual and not a logical-mathematical thinker (The world needs all kinds of minds - Temple Grandin, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKhg68QJlo0), I have scored only 17 on EQ. It results that I have an extreme female brain!

I looked up affective empathy on Wikipedia ("also called emotional empathy:[30] the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.[29] Our ability to empathize emotionally is supposed to be based on emotional contagion:[30] being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.[31]"), which describes me.

Once I talk to the person about it to fill in the details, I do exhibit the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state.("cognitive empathy"[29][32]). In fact I get really positive feedback about this.

What confuses me is that NTs test with loads of empathy and theory of mind, but functionally (IRL), they show empathy only within their own social group. I can empathize much more broadly given a few extra details.

Simon Baron-Cohen's research is basically pathological science. He knows the results he wants, and he produces tools, studies, etc. to reach those results. In this case, that autism is extreme male brain + lack of empathy. So everything he produces supports these conclusions, even when they do not (the traits chosen for "extreme maleness" are completely arbitrary and cherry-picked and his empathy quotient does not measure empathy).

This is the state of most research today. Research needs funding, so research must please the stakeholders.

Yeah, this guy is full of it.

Ah, Simon Baron-Cohen, or "my psychologist's mancrush". He's always using Baron-Cohen's theories on me, lmao. Lucky (or maybe not...) for him, I am capable of critical thinking.

I'd be the first to admit I don't have much (or anything) in the way of true empathy -- I can't read other peoples' feelings, I can't feel them for myself, etc. -- but I have way more sympathy than the average person. Once the situation is explained to me in a way I understand, I can sympathise with nearly anyone. It gets to the point where I wish I could shut it off because I can sympathise with people who have destructive viewpoints :/

I think that what a person does, and to a lesser extent, what he says, are much more important than how much empathy he has for others.

I hate he and his dual and stereotype-based point of view... His theory is sexist (Masculine - Logical and Rational; Feminine - Emotive and Intuitive), feelings are not the opposite of rationality, and a LOT of aspergers are more emotional than rational, too!

[quote="HimekoShirayuki"]I hate he and his dual and stereotype-based point of view... His theory is sexist (Masculine - Logical and Rational; Feminine - Emotive and Intuitive), feelings are not the opposite of rationality, and a LOT of aspergers are more emotional than rational, too![/quot]

Humans are empathetic within their identity group. That is why they polarize b/t black/white, gay/straight/ christian/muslim, neurotypical/neurodiverse, etc.

The NT researchers who think autistics do not have empathy (some of us have an over abundance - we're a spectrum) b/c they do not empathize with us. Who on this forum has not face unempathetic NTs?

I think stereotypes limiting and generally false, it's a way when peoples use to facilitate to understand what they don't know in the reality...

Possibly as more is learned about ASD, Baron-Cohen's models could be seen as limiting - but they were a start. The mindblindness stuff was helpful back in the 90s....

I have not read all the posts here so maybe someone has addressed this already. Also, Aspies are quite a varied lot, so maybe this is just me or just some other aspies. But I would like to make a comment about my experience of empathy and being an Aspie, as I know it.

Some time ago the writers for "The Simpson's" animated TV show gave Homer Simpson a rather interesting line that caused me to think.

Homer says,."Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand !".

Now that is a very appropriate line for a sociopath!

Now if we turn that around I think I could apply it to my own personal experience of Asperger's in myself.

As an Aspie, I can say, "Just because I don't understand, doesn't mean I don't care!".

For clarity:
Sociopath: ...."Just because I don't care, ...................doesn't mean I don't understand !"
Aspergers: .... "Just because I don't understand, ......doesn't mean I don't care!"

From my experience and reading of what other Aspies have written I think that reversed version says it accurately for Aspies such as myself.

I am pained that people think I do not have empathy, that I do not care for the troubles or trials that they are experiencing and that I feel no urge or responsibility to help them in their troubles. (So in that situation it is they that do not have empathy!)

The problem is that I do not grasp that the other person is troubled, or that what I am doing is troublesome to them. And when I do figure it out, it grieves me that I have added to their burden or pain or embarrassment.

I want to help out. I would far rather help someone and work to make things better for them or ease their grief. To me, that is the very essence of empathy. I would not wish to experience what they are experiencing, and I would wish to help them!

So it is that I find it offensive when someone, (a third party), says I am lacking in empathy, when in fact what I am lacking is the ability to see the need for empathy. I may not be showing empathy, but it is not because I do not want to, I simply do not know in many situations when it is needed. I object to being characterized as an uncaring monster, when what I am is impaired at sensing other people's emotions.

So I am confused, and offended when someone says to me, "What's the matter with you! Have you not feelings! Don't you care about others!"

I do care and I am deeply embarrassed to find that I have contributed to someone else's distress. If I were a sociopath I would not give a rip! I am a caring person, and I am concerned for the well being of others. It is for this reason that I would wish that others would cease to demean me and others aspies. I wish they would get this empathy vs. Aspergers thing straight. (And yes it is often people who know I have aspergers who berate me).

If the "experts" about Aspergers Syndrome have anything to say about Aspies and Empathy, I think they need to get this one straight. I think it would certainly help parents of Aspie's to know that their children are not deliberately being evil monsters, but need the situation better explained to them.

So then, does this have resonance with others who experience Aspergers syndrome or am I just that much more weird than others.

Regarding the "Sally" test used to prove that autistics are cognitively impaired and lack ToM resulting in decreased empathy...I recently heard the following info on Radiolab's "Words" eposode

In the early 1970s Nicaragua began a special ed program that included deaf children. As the deaf children spent time together, they developed a visual language. This language has been studied intensively by linguists Judy Kegl and R.J. Senghas.

While "Autism experts" have used these tests to demonstrate "Difficulty in understanding other minds is a core cognitive feature of autism spectrum conditions," linguists using similar tests see it as a language issue.

In a nut shell, the original deaf children developed a language that stressed action and used whole body, imitative gestures to communicate compared to Nicaraguan deaf children 20 years later - who used the more sophisticated gestures more commonly seen in ASL and more 'thought' vocabulary. Additionally, while the original children, now adults, were tested along side the children with the Sally like tests, failed while the children passed. Two years later, the adults passed the test following more exposure to the children's.

In autistics the Sally-like tests demonstrate a "core cognitive deficit" which provides evidence of reduced empathy. In the Nicaraguan Deaf culture it is considered a reversible language delay and this "phenomenon... one of the richest sources of data on language emergence discovered to date.

I wish more autistics could pursue becoming recognized "experts", but I suspect that since autism has become a lucrative business their contribution would be suppressed.

Please be aware that this use of the word empathy appears to be a very specific scientific definition of the word and is not truly relevant outside that scientific discipline regardless of similarities between the scientific definition and the common usage. In other words this is not the kind of "empathy" that I referred to. In the context you quote it is a scientific concept of inter human communication of information, not an emotional attribute of caring one for another.

I reread your post, Outlander. I think that you are believing the lies of the autism "experts" that set up the scenario that has caused you harm. The research by the linguists are offering you a different way to perceive yourself. Many of us actually suffer from too much empathy.

My point was that the autism "experts" subjectively chose a negative interpretation of the ToM research. The extent that their interpretation of the ToM research is subjective is highlighted by the positive interpretation made by the linguists for their group of subjects.

The autism "experts" chose an interpretation that supported ToM as a core cognitive deficit that cannot be reversed.

The linguists chose an interpretation that ToM is a language issue that can be reversed through increased exposure to vocabulary of "thought" words, and follow up two years later confirmed their interpretation.

Autism is defined by a communication delay and the gift of intense narrow interests. Some of us have additional sensory and dyspraxia issues that challenge personal independence. But while autism is a way of thinking that sets us apart from mainstream, we are not cognitively impaired or lack empathy. That is a lie

While I am unsure of what all you were getting at in the bulk of your post, I will give you an AMEN on this part of your conclusion.

I think my 13 years of work designing nuclear reactors, and my 24 years of teaching at 4 different universities (17 as a PhD professor of Mechanical Engineering) testify to that.

In spite of the abuse by bullies in primary and secondary schools and others in the workplace years later, I survived and thrived. Only as I was nearing retirement age did I finally hear about Asperger's Syndrome and finally find out why the social aspects of my life were so rugged.

As I have said elsewhere about my Aspergers, I would not trade my gifts for a cure. I have benefited in ways that I value from some of the positives that Asperger's brings, and those that were a burden were largely so as a result of the ignorance of neurotypicals, (who had no empathy for where I was coming from). I do wish I could have avoided the embarrassments resulting from not realizing when I was accidentally annoying others, but neurotypicals do many things that are annoying to me, (e.g. go drive on the highway with a bunch of neurotypicals).