Can ASD undiagnosed into adulthood become good manipulators?

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Logic is the default mode if you are socially disabled.

thank you so much for saying this, exactly what I think but I couldn't explain it that well. Also many tend to believe that being empathetic is opposed to being logical, probably because empathy is associated with emotion and because of the empathizing-systematizing theory.

I think aspies can be manipulative. Complex manipulation requires people skills, simple or childish ones, not exactly. It's more like: I did A and the person did B. When I want the person to do B again I am going to do A.
we humans make those associations all the time, and they can be manipulative or not. For example, A could be 'tell her I love her' and B 'give a hug'; but it could also be 'cry' and 'give the prohibited candy'

Okay, none of this refers to anything you've said or done that I am aware of. I am not saying you're not logical or rational, but I am trying to make a point in general:

But what do those mean to you? I see people here just saying that they're being logical or rational when they're being anything but.

Because it's not that "rational logic" being all anyone has. They might perceive themselves as being rational and logical but their rationality comes from a limited perspective that irrationally bars other perspectives. In a discussion I had on another forum, one person decided that logically speaking it should be impossible for someone to be both autistic and have ADHD. This was based strictly on his observation of two people (himself and an Aspie), and he refused to consider professional perspectives or the perspectives of those of us who had been diagnosed with both. In his logical, rational world that drew all of its data from his personal experience and nothing else, such a thing shouldn't be possible. When faced with the actuality, he retreated back to "logically that's impossible."

And stuff like that happens here every day.

I mean, I'm like you - I try to talk things out and make arguments, which rarely works because most people maintain their positions through emotional commitment. I also try to take new information into account, rather than rejecting it on the basis that I can't relate to it. And this is where I see a lot of people fail - they don't want the new information. They can't relate to it, so it must not be true. Or they think they're in an authoritative position to speak on the subject when they're not (for example: men trying to decide what counts as misogyny while ignoring women). I see this everywhere, and Wrong Planet is no exception.



There is no situation in which social manipulation can be a logical or rational choice?

My premise is based on what people here have said. I am not saying that most Aspies think this way, I am saying that I have literally seen Aspies say exactly this.

I once posted a thread indicating that emotion precedes decisions and that without emotion it would be extremely difficult to function. There was some interesting discussion from that, but some of the responses were rather clearly oriented in the "emotion is antagnostic to reason" premise. Rather than stating a premise, I am stating an observation.



Not true. I don't represent "sides." Because I do not think it is about "sides." You can believe what you want, but I think you'll find that I have really only made such responses to people specifically stating that logic opposes emotions or that they want to kill off their emotions.

I'm not even sure you're working from my actual posting history. If you are it's from a rather bizarre interpretation of what I've posted in such situations.

Anybody care to address my last question? Or would you rather continue the pissing matches?

I don't know if this makes sense to other people but to me manipulation maybe could be subjective?

I fell apart this week when someone said something upsetting that involved saying no to me in a confusing way.

As I started to recover I realized I was being asked what was wrong by other people and that they might try to get me what I wanted. And so I felt like I was manipulating because I do in fact want to get what I want. Then, they gave me what I'd asked for, and I knew my crying and appearing to be (because I was) overwhelmed was the reason and that they were responding to how I looked to them and what they felt I needed.

But I had stopped caring how I looked, I could no longer cope. So what I am wondering is, to be a really good manipulator, I thought you would have to have the ability to plan it, not just have things happen. But maybe being a good manipulator is more about the outcome? Or is it the process?

I feel like you guys are referring to scheming - plotting long term movements and forcing people to do certain things to get an outcome that benefits the schemer in the end. This is not what I'm talking about. Scheming is something that happens to me. I'm talking general short lived manipulation; like choosing to have a meltdown when you don't get what you want. I'm talking about not having a need for friendship so it does not bother you to notice if having someone in your life is only for a benefit to one's self. I have been tortured by people my entire life so only the slightest injustice will allow me to drop them like nothing without any care at all beyond the frustration of once again being screwed over. I want to know if enough has ever become enough causing you to turn the tables on bullies. Something clicks and you go from doormat to "don't screw with me!"

Stop taking "manipulation" so literally and open your mind to things that may be in the manipulation spectrum and quit focusing on the manipulation we receive and focus on how we ourselves may appear manipulative or something similar to manipulative. That's what I would like to hear about.

Thanks

Sorry didn't see your post. If you're asking whether social and communication problems in people who have been diagnosed can lead to others feeling manipulated by the unexpected behavior then I think the answer is very much yes. I think people want to bring things back to what feels normal. Which means feeling obligated to respond to any unusual behavior. And that feeling of obligation to respond makes people feel manipulated.

But I still wonder isn't manipulation subjective? Or maybe not.

People may choose to have tantrums. I don't know. No one ever chooses to have a meltdown. It's not a choice. It may appear to be a choice because the person may be able to hold back for a time but it is never a choice and I can't imagine anyone ever choosing to have a meltdown, I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to have a meltdown. And thinking about it this way will mess you up, IMO.

IdleHands if you are getting hurt by another person regardless of intentionality remove yourself if you can. Of cours anyone may see manipulative. Just that sorting out all the social expectations going into that is VERY complicated.

But yes, we can all appear to be manipulative.

You are not obligated to respond to someone else's meltdown unless it is your child, which clearly isn't the issue you are posting about. Other people may take over if you don't. The level of need in someone having a meltdown is such they may easily overlook your needs. If that is happening, I try to stay out of the way. Or be pleasant toy soothing in tone but never blame yourself for someone else's meltdown. That's internal to them and will get you nowhere.

And yes of course you are right that we are very vulnerable to being manipulated by others. And may appear quite manipulative. I'm sorry that something like that may be happening to you now.

Did you want to post about what is going on for you?

IMO those with ASDs can certainly try to be manipulative, but aren't likely to be very successful at it. I've seen a few members on here trying (and failing) to be manipulative, especially in regard to their dealings with moderators if we pull them over for a rule violation.

Well, I have uncontrolled meltdowns all the time. My aspergers son has meltdowns and when I tell him I'm going to video record him he stops. My HFA daughter has meltdowns all the time - bad ones - still tries to hit the floor and bang her head but her more mild meltdowns can be curtailed by threats of being grounded from something she likes. I try positive reinforcement as much as possible.

I, like most of us, was manipulated and bullied my entire life, but most recently the husband of my wife's friend has been going through what will probably become a divorce. I work in IT and so does he. I have 3 yrs professional experience and he has 10. I am still entry level and he has a high up Sr position. We have known each other for 7 years, but up until now we really did not have a relationship. He's aspie as well.

When my wife told me he needed someone to talk to I decided to be that person for 2 reasons: 1. I have no friends. 2. I hoped he would trust/like me enough to teach me what he knows and possibly get me a job where he works. More for reason 2 than 1.

My hopes are working. He has been trying to help me out and been talking to his boss about me working there. Been "happening soon" for about 3 months.

The other day I got it in my head that he was using me thinking I had info (via proxy of my wife) about his wife that could help his marriage and the job was never coming.

I accused him of this in a sort of di*K way and he got pissed and then sent me screen shots from his phone showing the conversation he had with his boss that very moment.

Now I feel like a jackass and the manipulator. I feel like i am manipulating him and accused him of manipulating me.

I might add that my childhood was particularly rough, so much so that I wonder if I was born Aspergers and due to life I act like Borderline personalities do.

So because of this I questioned myself. Am I actually not aaspergers if I can do this. I feel terrible so I know I'm not a sociopath, but my mother Is and my dad is Aspergers.

I think I see, IdleHands. You are feeling like accusing him was a meltdown and manipulative and therefore wrong, and are feeling guilty?

I think it would be wrong to act like you are friends if you are planning harm. But it is not IMO wrong to act kindly another person in order to help ourselves unless we are leading the other person into harms way. Then, yes, that is wrong.

Whether you help your child with homework out of love and concern tonight or to avoid looking bad to other adults, your child's needs are being met if homework help is needed and you provide, or arrange for, that help. That's the right thing. Making friends with someone you're told is lonely is also a morally positive action, even if you hope the person can help you.

After 3 months of hearing this job would happen soon, I might feel played with, too. Maybe sooner. If you were being strung along, it's worth thinking about whether it's your friend or the boss doing it. If the friend has AS he might have trouble identifying insincere promises of "we'll get to it" too.

So, I think you may be right about being manipulated. Or maybe not, some jobs take awhile to happen. And it could be blown by the negative feelings, though possibly there's a way past that. Think about what Tallyman said (much more concisely than I did) and your situation: If you were a good manipulator, you'd have the job.

There isn't anything bad about wanting a friend to help you, that's normal, that's fine.

And I think you accused him because there was some sort of social confusion that proved too much for you. Decide if you feel you acted badly enough that you want to apologize and if so, it doesn't matter what the other person did, you should still do what you feel is the right thing. I am sorry things are proving so difficult for you. And glad that you are still trying.

So, if I understand Tallman correctly, maybe I was trying to be somewhat manipulative but failed when my guilt caused me to lash out at him? I absolutely meant him no harm and I was there for him and I was sincere in my advice to him. I really actually relate to what he's going through so it almost feels like empathy because I actually have been in his shoes and I like that feeling. I even took his pain on Ss my own and did not sleep well and had more anxiety than usual. I just don't have a need for friendship. My wife gives me all I need in that department. Relationships are exhausting.

I just feel bad because largely I was there for him because I want to change jobs. I don't do well past the 2 year mark; the aspie comes out too much and then I read into everything and think everybody hates me.

The driving force to all of this: Obamacare!
Because my employer gives JUST ME free insurance (the copay and deductibles are astronomical so it's not free; 100 bucks just to go in for a cold) I do not qualify for subsidies under Obamacare. Even though a family plan costs 900 bucks a month (1/2 my salary). So a man making 30,000 a year with a wife and 2 kids gets ZERO help. This job he's trying to get me is a contract job so no insurance offered. With that job I would qualify for subsidies and could get insurance for a few hundred a month!

Why do I need insurance so bad?

My wife is sick; her gallbladder needed to be removed 7 years ago and she's diabetic and never gets to the doctor. If I don't either find another job or purchase insurance by March 31st I will be fined. That's right, fined for not having insurance yet my wife remains sick.

I'm afraid the thing is going to burst inside her and kill her; being the sole provider I ttake this as my fault.

So thanks to Obamacare a working man is having to weigh leaving the stability of a job to keep his wife healthy.

These types of situations are the "for survival" I referred to earlier.

Sorry for the book.

If you were genuinely manipulative you would see ^this^ as a tool you could leverage over the guy to get him to do what you want, and you would have recognized it as a mutually beneficial situation all along, rather than suddenly realizing it and getting mad.

I remember what you were writing there, it was very insightful.