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Misery
Veteran
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Age: 42
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08 Jun 2014, 7:50 pm

kittylover wrote:
BecauseImArtistic wrote:
I mean, I have been suicidal and I understand that one cannot help such feelings, and I understand how, without any support, a person may not be able to resist those feelings. I'm just trying to answer your question of whether or not I think it is logical. And I don't see any logic in it.


There is a case that your logic misses: when improving one's situation is impossible.

Death is nothingness; a zero. Suicide would would thus be logical when one's situation is so bad that one's life rating is negative and there is no hope of getting it above zero.

Someone who is in severe pain in the late stages of metastatic pancreatic cancer would be an example; their life would be of negative total self subjective value and there is no hope for them with current technology. Many people would agree that this person would be justified in killing themselves, and many would also agree that they ought to be eligible for assisted suicide.

Please understand that this is basically how I feel about myself. I'm in a lot of pain from gender dysphoria, to the point that my life has no value to me anymore. I only value it for what it means for others now, which isn't all that much. The shrinks and other doctors have tried a bunch of different chemical solutions to my problems with depression and nothing has helped. Also, nothing has helped my body meaningfully feminize.


The situation has to actually BE impossible though, as opposed to the person just THINKING it's impossible. When you're dealing with something like horrible cancer, yes, that can happen. But for many, MANY other things, it's very, very rare. Most people though will simply give up when they hit a certain point, even if the answer is literally standing right next to them (which they likely cant see due to allowing their depression to have total control), and thus it becomes "impossible".

I've known people in your situation. Big time gender issues, tons of depression, and a body type that "just cant do it", as they put it. Tried every doctor and every everything. Or so they thought, anyway, which is the bit that always gets me.

One of them DID end up getting what he wanted, but then he also was the one who perservered no matter what. Had he allowed the depression to take control (though he very nearly did), he would NOT have found the people that eventually ended up leading him to this. They woulda passed him by, as he would NEVER have noticed. Oh, and he was the REALLY manly sort originally. The guy coulda punched a truck up a tree, and rather looked it, too. He found the right people though, in the end (after about a bazillion tries, but hey, he kept going at it) to get him going down the track to what he wanted.

And I've had my own similar experiences with other subjects. People tend to think that something is impossible because THEIR OWN knowledge... which typically is VERY lacking, not that they ever admit it to themselves.... does not include some things, and thus those things must not exist. Which is why people tend to say "but I tried EVERYTHING", which.... well, let's just say it's ridiculously rare that that statement is actually correct. Like, "winning the lottery 3 times in a row" rare.

Hell, just the fact that your docs are trying to cure you with idiotic chemicals (why.... why would they do that? Doctors I've known would not have tried such a thing for that situation...) says that it's time to find new docs, even if you've already done so 30 times.

Frustrating? Oh yes, stuff like that is. ANd alll sorts of other negative crap. But if you not only allow your depression to consume you, but also allow it to make you feel like you really did try everything under the sun (which isnt actually possible), then indeed, you'll never, ever get what you want.



Solitudinarian
Snowy Owl
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15 Jun 2014, 8:01 pm

The problem with suicide, when you look at it from a purely logistic point of view without any strong emotional response or moral judgment, is that there are very few reliable methods, and most people lack access to these methods. So there is usually a pretty good chance that a suicidal person ends up making their situation worse than before, either by crippling themselves or by being institutionalized.

If your life is already hell, you really don't want to make it even worse and be left without any means to do anything about your situation. If you're paralyzed in a wheelchair or locked up in a mental instution, you can neither finish what you started, nor do you have much hope of your life ever getting better. As long as you remain in control of your own life and in reasonably good health, sudden improvements to your life situation could always happen by chance, even if the improvement is "only" the result of medication.

I've personally found that medication is as good a reason as any to enjoy your life. We're all drugging ourselves in one way or another. Does it really matter if our brains produce pleasant chemicals in response to a favorable life experiences, or if we ingest these chemicals in form of drugs? And shouldn't one be eager to try the latter if the former is not really an option for whatever reason? Especially since the right medication can also improve one's everyday situation by making it easier to deal with anything from household chores to socializing. So the most logical thing to do is to try medical drugs first, or several different drugs if necessary, and see what happens.