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Jacoby
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20 Mar 2014, 12:11 pm

You guys made the mistake of reading Salon, they have articles like this pretty much every day. In the "privilege" movement, you'll come to realize very quickly these people are actually just man hating anti-white racists. Replace white man with Jew and nobody would hesitate to call it what it is. These people are looking to piss people off and get clicks.



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20 Mar 2014, 12:31 pm

Magneto wrote:
What is sacred to one person is common to another. Why should we not eat beef, because some consider cows to be sacred?


First, no culture considers cows to be sacred. That is a misapprehension of Hindu belief that is not borne out in reality.

Second, eating beef is an episodic event. My consumption of beef begins and ends with the meal. I am perfectly prepared to forego pork in the company of Jews and Muslims; or to forego meat in the company of vegetarians. But the appropriation of cultural symbols is an ongoing action.


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20 Mar 2014, 12:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:
...will someone actually attempt to defend this morass of made up feminist words, self righteousness, and racism in progressive drag?...


Not I. I enjoy watching women belly-dance, whether it is the "authentic stuff" or not.

The author of the article, though, failed to work in even the O-Word. Hence, she ain't no Feminist.

http://wayneandwax.com/pdfs/maira-arabface.pdf

[quote-"Sunaina Maira"]
...feminists had an ambivalent relationship to belly dancing. For example, in 1970, some women's groups protested a belly dance performance in Berkeley because they viewed belly dancing as objectifying women's bodies...[/quote]

http://nadiadenov.weebly.com/a-personal ... dance.html

Nadia Denov wrote:
...I am a feminist and a belly dancer. I am sure that, for some, that statement is an oxymoron and an impossibility. Some feminists are offended by belly dancing on the grounds that we expose ourselves and reinforce chauvinistic voyeurism....

...There is no denying either that belly dance has historically been involved in the objectification (and self-objectification!) of women. There are certainly those students that approach belly dance to allure men – women who maybe feel being sexy is the only way they can earn attention and love. In such a case, practicing belly dance would be a means to the wrong ends....

...Nevertheless, no matter how feminist our intentions, when it comes to performing, we have little control over our audiences. We have to wonder, does the presence of an audience make the belly dance experience more or less empowering for women? Is there really a difference between claiming belly dance as empowering and stating the same for stripping?...

...Belly dance exists at a point of conflict between women’s expressions of fundamental truths, and patriarchal interpretations of this expression....

...Why are there so many Western women performing belly dance at Arabic and Greek restaurant instead of dancers from those particular countries? How does performing regularly in a restaurant affect dancers through repetition, commercialization, and the need to adapt to an often inattentive audience?...

...Because belly dance stands at the above mentioned crossroads, deciding to take it up is a subversive act...

...the dances of traditional Middle Eastern and North African women were condemned as gratuitous sexual display, fetishised into a sign of the ‘Orient’s’ sensuality and abandon, deemed grotesque, and immoral, censored and altogether banned....The style of movements practiced by these so-called Algerian and other women is something too objectionable for people of refined taste to countenance. It is a depraved and immoral exhibition. It may well be styled an outrage to allow such an exhibition and rate it under the head of dancing....

...belly dance can be seen as a potent weapon for feminist politics and a potentially transgressive practice for women. Most notably, belly dance is transgressive because it destabilizes social assumptions that women should not publicly shake, wobble, or draw attention to their breasts, hips, abdomens, and especially their pelvises...

...In Feminism and Islam, Mai Yamani indicates that in the Arab world there are two separate concepts of belly dance. First, “a social activity, particularly among women in their own segregated social gatherings”.And second, “an artistic activity, performed in public by professional dancers who are considered “disreputable and loose – whorish,” even if their performances are sought after both by the locals for entertainment (especially for weddings), as sell as by tourist. These have traditionally been women from “marginalized groups in society: gypsies, minorities, and the poor.” Maira also puts it very well, Arabs and Muslim “don’t mind watching it, but they just don’t want their relatives doing it.”. I would venture to say that for the most part they enjoy it and appreciate it, even if it’s considered haram. As Buonaventura accurately points out: Islam is “a faith in which the sacred and the secular are indissolubly linked.” This has undoubtedly been the main reason why “Islamic society has never quite resolved its ambivalence towards female dancers, who in many respects, defies its laws concerning the conduct of women in society.”

Because of the Islamic religious and cultural prohibitions regarding women dancing in public, Western women have, for generations now, filled a gap and fulfilled a demand of Arab society which their own women cannot. However, some belly dancers go as far as justifying the involvement of Western dancers by claiming the dance is disappearing or underappreciated in the East. The fact is there have certainly been many regulations and prohibitions regarding the public performance of belly dance. In Egypt for example, all dancers were expelled from Cairo from the years 1834 to 1866 by Muhammad Ali. Nowadays, they must follow strict regulations, such as covering their midriff (even if just with translucent fabric). However, a ‘we are the saviors of the dance’ approach implies that Arabs themselves are too blind to appreciate the dance, enthralled in either a misguided quest for modernity or in the furor of religious fundamentalism. As Maira suggest, “this hints at a missionary imperialism that is akin to the ‘cultural recovery’ of colonial-era Western anthropology.”.

To belly dance, especially in public, goes against the social norms of propriety, Eastern or Western, which declare women should not be openly sexual or show too much skin....


Okay, now here is a wench who knows how to write for a Feminist audience. She worked in all of the important buzzwords, as far as I can tell.

But, to get back to the topic of "appropriation": it is interesting that, in the Arab world, the women would only do belly dancing in their own separate areas, away from the men. The women who would perform at social events where men were present, or for tourists, were considered to be of low social status. Now, it is mostly Western women who perform belly dancing in Middle Eastern countries, and in Arab and Greek restaurants in the West. The "appropriation" seems almost complete.

But, I still enjoy watching them jiggle. I don't care.



sonofghandi
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20 Mar 2014, 12:59 pm

Jacoby wrote:
You guys made the mistake of reading Salon, they have articles like this pretty much every day. In the "privilege" movement, you'll come to realize very quickly these people are actually just man hating anti-white racists. Replace white man with Jew and nobody would hesitate to call it what it is. These people are looking to piss people off and get clicks.


While I agree that Salon is a terrible place to go if you are looking for accuracy or an unbiased view, I do have some problems with you using your broad brush to paint everyone there as man-hating, anti-white, and racist. They definitely see things that aren't there on a lamentably frequent basis, but your condemnations are about on the same level you accuse them of bieng.

As for pissing people off for clicks, Salon is hardly in the minority.


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ArrantPariah
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20 Mar 2014, 1:07 pm

For the ladies who belly-dance: a chance to be on a reality show: http://topbellydancer.com/index.html

The cultural appropriation has been taken up a notch.

(Not that I have anything against cultural appropriation, particularly when it comes to things that are tantalizingly sexy).



Jacoby
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20 Mar 2014, 1:19 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You guys made the mistake of reading Salon, they have articles like this pretty much every day. In the "privilege" movement, you'll come to realize very quickly these people are actually just man hating anti-white racists. Replace white man with Jew and nobody would hesitate to call it what it is. These people are looking to piss people off and get clicks.


While I agree that Salon is a terrible place to go if you are looking for accuracy or an unbiased view, I do have some problems with you using your broad brush to paint everyone there as man-hating, anti-white, and racist. They definitely see things that aren't there on a lamentably frequent basis, but your condemnations are about on the same level you accuse them of bieng.

As for pissing people off for clicks, Salon is hardly in the minority.


My comment was more specific to people that trumpet this privilege garbage, Salon has an article or two like this on their front page pretty much every day. These people race bait like no one else. I like Glenn Greenwald but I don't believe he writes from them anymore.



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20 Mar 2014, 1:46 pm

There is such a thing as white privilege (being able to walk down the street without the police stopping to question and possibly threaten you), but the "cultural appropriation" of belly dancing and such by whites does not qualify.


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20 Mar 2014, 2:42 pm

By the by

http://www.orientaldancer.net/articles/ ... ance.shtml

Salome wrote:
Prostitution the Eastern Block and Belly dance

It's a subject that continues to crop up in the American Belly dance community; Eastern European prostitutes advertising 'the goods' under the guise of belly dancer in the Near and Middle East. I am an American Oriental dance artist that performs in the luxury venues of Africa and Asia....

Show Ballets
The international entertainment market is saturated with Ukrainian and Russian performers, the bulk of which are show ballets. A show ballet can be a soloist but is more often a group, usually numbering 3 to 5, of female performers in their twenties. The education of show ballet participants vary radically...

How it works. There is a show ballet creator, usually a mature woman retired from performance. The creator makes a set of choreographies each with a specific theme - Entre (Showgirl), Oriental, "Gypsy", Latin, Russian Folk, Modern dance to rock and a Cowgirl dance! Show ballet soloists may perform one theme opposed to the combo platter and "Oriental" is commonly requested....

...The creator selects a group and teaches them the choreographed show. She also designs and makes a distinct costume for each choreography. Costuming for the ethnic dances can range from inappropriate, to attractive but off the mark, or occasionally on the money....

The Dark Side
...From Hollywood to Bollywood, the entertainment industry has an underbelly. There are those that troll the industry to exploit for profit. One means of exploitation is called "consummation". A venue owner (typically independent nightclubs) hires dancers for his venue. They may perform once, not at all, or possibly several short routines throughout the night. What they will be expected to do is work the floor - sit with the clientele and encourage guests to buy them cocktails. For every cocktail a guest buys the girls earn a percentage of the sale. Often hustling drinks is a front for hustling period.

Interesting to note that in "A Trade Like Any Other, Female Singers and Dancers in Egypt". Karin Van Nieuwkerk says "in the nightclubs of the 1920's and 1930's the main task of the female entertainer was to sit and drink with the customers. Usually they sang first or danced on the stage. This system of sitting and drinking with the customers was called fath from the Arabic verb to open. The female entertainers received a percentage of the profits made from the drinks they and the customers consumed". Though she noted prostitution was uncommon.

Some venue owners are up front about consummation duties and the 'possibility' of prostitution when advertising or soliciting women. Among those, there is no pretense of dance performance. For example, in Japan, this type of venue advertises "hostess" positions with succinct job descriptions. In other regions, an owner will indicate something along the lines of - she only needs to know one dance and have one costume in case the police come to inspect my club.

But this frankness is rare. Typically a venue owner will seek out a show ballet and offer them a seemingly legitimate dance performance contract. Once the show ballet has arrived all bets are off and the nightmare is in full swing.

One girl said that after every guest bought her a cocktail, she'd drink it, then go to the bathroom and make herself vomit, so that she could get through the night of 'complimentary' drinks. I've heard girls say everything from "I was locked in my room until I agreed", "he threatened to cancel my air ticket home if I didn't" to "I chose to have sex for 100 bucks rather than drink and vomit all night for 5".

This exploitation is successful because this group has no financial recourse. An American citizen can go to an American Embassy and our government will buy you a return ticket to the United States. It's a loan. They put a lean on your passport barring international travel until you pay it back. But even if you have no friends, family or resources to help yourself you have that option. Not so for Ukrainians and Russians.

Why Dancers Risk It
There IS a thriving, albeit competitive, entertainment market in Africa and Asia. Cruise lines, 4 and 5 star hotels, extravagant private gala's... And a huge demand for show ballets, especially in Egypt and Turkey. In fact, Lucy (star of Cairo, Egypt) employed a Show ballet for her nightclub "The Parisiana". Shira wrote an article in which she describes the show ballet at "The Parisiana" along with pictures of the show.

The average salary in Ukraine and Russia is 50 dollars a month. 50 dollars is not enough for basic needs. People here are consumed with how they are going to make it day to day. At a minimum, show ballet dancers get food, housing and pocket money. On the high end they get living needs + a 1000 USD monthly salary. This is an enormous sum that is unattainable in their native country. Even if they are getting paid squat they have the security of a place to live and food to eat.

Prostitution
An article I read recently makes the following statement "many Eastern European and Russian dancers have infiltrated the Beirut Bellydance scene, but they are doing anything but Bellydance; they have not studied the dance, and even if few have it is a cover for something else: prostitution".

It is undeniable that Russian and Ukrainian women work in the sex trade, both in and outside of their countries. And there are some Eastern block sex workers in the Belly dance industry but anymore so than Arab? My Arab sources in the Middle East say no.

In a prostitution report covering Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Tunisia detailing where sex workers are accessible (both Russian and Arab) nothing specific to dance or entertainment was cited. What was reported is that Russian sex workers visit these countries "in chartered trips, under the cover of tourism for two weeks and leave immediately after". They and Arab women work in specific areas of cities where prostitution is prevalent. They gain clients through hotel staff that discreetly facilitate prostitution for guests. Through Hotel nightclubs and independent Nightclubs that they frequent as 'guests'. Through nightclub staff, maids, and taxi cab drivers that facilitate prostitution. And in Tunsia (prostitution is legal) and Lebanon, they work in brothels and massage parlors....

....While Belly dance is generally enjoyed by the people of the Near and Middle East it is not a respected profession. Dancers are looked upon as 'fallen' women. The sentiment springs out of ideals that women be chaste, and modest. Of which dancing in public for a mixed gender audience as a profession is neither. Even if prostitution linked with Belly dance were successfully stopped it still would not be a respected profession in that region.

Long before Ukrainian and Russian women 'infiltrated' the scene, many Turkish and Arab women, did and do, use Belly dance in conjunction with prostitution.


Unless belly-dancers in America also offer professional ejaculatory administration, they are falling short of full-on cultural appropriation. :shameonyou:



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20 Mar 2014, 4:17 pm

Misslizard wrote:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cultural-exchange-and-cultural-appropriation/?utm_source=policymic


yeah, that.



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21 Mar 2014, 11:16 pm

Stannis wrote:
Is there even a conflict here? Nobody seems to agree with the article...


That actually makes me happy, for a variety of reasons.

I posted it because I've struggled over the years to articulate some of the distaste I have for certain elements of the feminist and progressive movements without coming across as yet another bitter white male™, and had come across this article that showed what I wanted to talk about in the form of an actual person and not some strawman conjured up by me. I come across these pretty regularly at Salon, a completely earnest article decrying classism in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time mostly due to a humorous situation involving a construction foreman and his lazy workers comes particularly to mind. I read Salon and other sites like it because I like to hear what people I disagree with are thinking in their own words, rather than second hand through a biased filter, tends to keep me a bit more honest in my dealings, and is a practice I highly recommend. I also occasionally come across things I agree with, that I can then later drop into threads without the risk of people claiming a biased source, since it's biased in the "wrong" direction.


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20 Apr 2014, 12:11 pm

Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic. I say this because appropriating another culture is the most tactless form of pretense(which is the act of pretending to be something you're not). Using PC terminology is an intellectually lazy way to criticize it. Don't chastise people for it, mock them instead! :P

What cracks me up about white liberal belly dancers is how they have not only appropriated an art form from another culture, but have invented this stupid feminist mythology surrounding it: They think they're reclaiming something which was never theirs to begin with. That's why they insist falsely that belly dancing "is not a dance of seduction" when of all the traditional forms of dance out there it is by far the most overtly sexual. They often peform exclusively with and in front of other women ostensibly for female solidarity, but I think they just wanna flaunt how much sexier they are than their female audience members. LOL



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21 Apr 2014, 6:56 am

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic.


Agreed. This is the go-to for those who have little creativity, but long to give the appearance that they do.


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21 Apr 2014, 9:54 am

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic. I say this because appropriating another culture is the most tactless form of pretense(which is the act of pretending to be something you're not). Using PC terminology is an intellectually lazy way to criticize it. Don't chastise people for it, mock them instead! :P

What cracks me up about white liberal belly dancers is how they have not only appropriated an art form from another culture, but have invented this stupid feminist mythology surrounding it: They think they're reclaiming something which was never theirs to begin with. That's why they insist falsely that belly dancing "is not a dance of seduction" when of all the traditional forms of dance out there it is by far the most overtly sexual. They often peform exclusively with and in front of other women ostensibly for female solidarity, but I think they just wanna flaunt how much sexier they are than their female audience members. LOL


So you're saying that western women take up bellydancing for the same reason that guys play softball, or that any human being does ANY thing-which is vanity.

What shocking news! Lets stop the presses!

LADIES!

If you take up bellydancing: it will cause you to join the human race! HOW HORRIFYING!



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21 Apr 2014, 10:10 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic. I say this because appropriating another culture is the most tactless form of pretense(which is the act of pretending to be something you're not). Using PC terminology is an intellectually lazy way to criticize it. Don't chastise people for it, mock them instead! :P

What cracks me up about white liberal belly dancers is how they have not only appropriated an art form from another culture, but have invented this stupid feminist mythology surrounding it: They think they're reclaiming something which was never theirs to begin with. That's why they insist falsely that belly dancing "is not a dance of seduction" when of all the traditional forms of dance out there it is by far the most overtly sexual. They often peform exclusively with and in front of other women ostensibly for female solidarity, but I think they just wanna flaunt how much sexier they are than their female audience members. LOL


So you're saying that western women take up bellydancing for the same reason that guys play softball, or that any human being does ANY thing-which is vanity.

What shocking news! Lets stop the presses!

LADIES!

If you take up bellydancing: it will cause you to join the human race! HOW HORRIFYING!





Actually NO. Read what I posted as opposed to spitting out a kneejerk reply. And FYI, most guys take up baseball as softball is mostly played by women. Teams sports are international and many association football teams have players of a different nationality than flag the national team plays under.

Dancing, partcularly belly dancing, is done for a very different purpose than sports and many dances performed by women most certainly are an expression of vanity. What I'm saying is that white liberal feminists who take up belly dancing are determined to make it into something much more than it really is and invented a MYTHOS about it that has no basis in reality. Hope that helps, sparky.



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07 May 2014, 6:57 pm

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic. I say this because appropriating another culture is the most tactless form of pretense(which is the act of pretending to be something you're not). Using PC terminology is an intellectually lazy way to criticize it. Don't chastise people for it, mock them instead! :P

What cracks me up about white liberal belly dancers is how they have not only appropriated an art form from another culture, but have invented this stupid feminist mythology surrounding it: They think they're reclaiming something which was never theirs to begin with. That's why they insist falsely that belly dancing "is not a dance of seduction" when of all the traditional forms of dance out there it is by far the most overtly sexual. They often peform exclusively with and in front of other women ostensibly for female solidarity, but I think they just wanna flaunt how much sexier they are than their female audience members. LOL


So you're saying that western women take up bellydancing for the same reason that guys play softball, or that any human being does ANY thing-which is vanity.

What shocking news! Lets stop the presses!

LADIES!

If you take up bellydancing: it will cause you to join the human race! HOW HORRIFYING!





Actually NO. Read what I posted as opposed to spitting out a kneejerk reply. And FYI, most guys take up baseball as softball is mostly played by women. Teams sports are international and many association football teams have players of a different nationality than flag the national team plays under.

Dancing, partcularly belly dancing, is done for a very different purpose than sports and many dances performed by women most certainly are an expression of vanity. What I'm saying is that white liberal feminists who take up belly dancing are determined to make it into something much more than it really is and invented a MYTHOS about it that has no basis in reality. Hope that helps, sparky.


It's kind of like when a white person wears braids that are usually only popular among non-whites and used to be thought of as an unprofessional hairstyle. It might not be the white person doing this, but sometimes magazines look at a picture of a white person doing it and say "Wow! This person looks great!", conveniently ignoring all of the non-white people who have done those hairstyles for decades (even hundreds and THOUSANDS of years). In other words, it only becomes news when a white (or person who can appear white) does it.



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07 May 2014, 8:03 pm

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Appropriation is not a crime, nor is it "racist". And yet at the same time, it's really pathetic. I say this because appropriating another culture is the most tactless form of pretense(which is the act of pretending to be something you're not). Using PC terminology is an intellectually lazy way to criticize it. Don't chastise people for it, mock them instead! :P

What cracks me up about white liberal belly dancers is how they have not only appropriated an art form from another culture, but have invented this stupid feminist mythology surrounding it: They think they're reclaiming something which was never theirs to begin with. That's why they insist falsely that belly dancing "is not a dance of seduction" when of all the traditional forms of dance out there it is by far the most overtly sexual. They often peform exclusively with and in front of other women ostensibly for female solidarity, but I think they just wanna flaunt how much sexier they are than their female audience members. LOL


So you're saying that western women take up bellydancing for the same reason that guys play softball, or that any human being does ANY thing-which is vanity.

What shocking news! Lets stop the presses!

LADIES!

If you take up bellydancing: it will cause you to join the human race! HOW HORRIFYING!





Actually NO. Read what I posted as opposed to spitting out a kneejerk reply. And FYI, most guys take up baseball as softball is mostly played by women. Teams sports are international and many association football teams have players of a different nationality than flag the national team plays under.

Dancing, partcularly belly dancing, is done for a very different purpose than sports and many dances performed by women most certainly are an expression of vanity. What I'm saying is that white liberal feminists who take up belly dancing are determined to make it into something much more than it really is and invented a MYTHOS about it that has no basis in reality. Hope that helps, sparky.


So...
men (and women) play sports -the purpose of which is to beat your opponet-the purpose of which is to inflate your own ego (or your team, city, or nations ego)at your opponets expense-which is a form of vanity.Take away vanity- there would be no sports. As opposed to women who take up bellydancing - which also a form of vanity. And they do in immitation of nonwestern women who also do it for vanity. And the 'mythos' is that 'we can do it for vanity to' which IS reality. But you have a problem with it.

So...what exactly is the problem?

And what does the nationality of baseball players have to do with anything?
Many men do play softball, but whether they do or not..what does that have to do with anything?

But seriously...how is sports NOT about vanity?