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Tollorin
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24 Mar 2014, 5:59 pm

GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/270

However, self-interest is human nature.

And even the altruism present in human nature is insufficient to support a Communist society.

http://ggsc-web02.ist.berkeley.edu/imag ... truism.pdf

Self-interest is a incomplete view of human nature, generosity and being selflesss is also part of human nature; I go as far to say that everything we do is part of human nature and to say that in many case the interest of the group (tribe) is stronger part of human nature that self-interest. (If not why peoples would sacrifice as much as they're live for the interest of what they consider their "tribe")



Stannis
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24 Mar 2014, 6:03 pm

Viper, can you watch this please. It's important.

2:12

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwQEgOKEEXI[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo[/youtube]



Last edited by Stannis on 24 Mar 2014, 6:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Hopper
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24 Mar 2014, 6:08 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Self-interest is a incomplete view of human nature, generosity and being selflesss is also part of human nature; I go as far to say that everything we do is part of human nature and to say that in many case the interest of the group (tribe) is stronger part of human nature that self-interest. (If not why peoples would sacrifice as much as they're live for the interest of what they consider their "tribe")


*Applauds heartily*

Damn right. 'Human nature' includes everything any human has ever done. No animal - humans included - can go against or outside its nature.


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GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 6:21 pm

Stannis wrote:
Viper, can you watch this please. It's important.

2:12

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwQEgOKEEXI[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo[/youtube]


Darwin. Dawkins. Haldane. Hamilton. Price. Wilson. Smith. Trivers.

Those are the people deserving of having a scholarly opinion on human nature.

Please do not contaminate their greatness with someone as utterly irrelevant as Noam Chomsky.



Hopper
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24 Mar 2014, 7:05 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Darwin. Dawkins. Haldane. Hamilton. Price. Wilson. Smith. Trivers.

Those are the people deserving of having a scholarly opinion on human nature.


How so?


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


LKL
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24 Mar 2014, 8:04 pm

RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

Who said anything about racism? I'm talking about kin selection - that goes out to about the cousin level, and no further, and applies whether your cousins look like you or not.
Quote:
Anarchists in Spain and Ukraine were able to have large scale policy because of federalism.

Federalism and anarchism are sort of antithetical, don't you think?



AnonymousAnonymous
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24 Mar 2014, 8:08 pm

Three names: Lenin, Stalin, and Marx.


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LKL
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24 Mar 2014, 8:14 pm

To be clear, I do believe in a socialist-oriented mixed economy; I just don't believe that a 'pure' communist economy or a 'pure' libertarian/laissez-faire economy are possible or even desirable.



Stannis
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24 Mar 2014, 8:34 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Stannis wrote:
Viper, can you watch this please. It's important.

2:12

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwQEgOKEEXI[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo[/youtube]


Darwin. Dawkins. Haldane. Hamilton. Price. Wilson. Smith. Trivers.

Those are the people deserving of having a scholarly opinion on human nature.

Please do not contaminate their greatness with someone as utterly irrelevant as Noam Chomsky.


They're not about human nature, but they are related to some statements you made in this thread.

Just...watch...please.



Last edited by Stannis on 24 Mar 2014, 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 8:37 pm

LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

Who said anything about racism? I'm talking about kin selection - that goes out to about the cousin level, and no further, and applies whether your cousins look like you or not.
Quote:
Anarchists in Spain and Ukraine were able to have large scale policy because of federalism.

Federalism and anarchism are sort of antithetical, don't you think?

Nope

Anarchists are not anti-organization. Many of us are open to the idea of assemblies having delegates on rotation.

I also don't believe people need to be related to cooperate with each other. Just look at some communes around today, like the Acorn Community.



Warsie
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24 Mar 2014, 9:40 pm

kazma wrote:
the idea behind it sounds ok i think


The answer: The Bourgoeise and Ruling Classes and general majorities of several countries manipulated others against a communist society/mode of operation. They talk about 60 million dead soviet citizens that Stalin personally shot dead and then claim the millions of people killed due to capitalism and imperialism do not count because it's not "true" capitalism even if the same capitalist order results in plenty of dead people today (excess deaths from Iraq war ranges from 33k to one million depending on your sources, don't forget how many died from the sanctions in the decade before).

Oh, and don't forget how fun capitalism was for Russia and he rest of the former USSR with life expectance falling through the roof, countries losing electrification (Armenia for example) and general demographic collapse (check the demographics for Russia and Ukraine after USSR collapse, look at the population drop. Oh, and much of the major growth is from non-russian populations in Caucaus and illegal immigrants)

Image

GGPViper wrote:
Darwin. Dawkins. Haldane. Hamilton. Price. Wilson. Smith. Trivers.

Those are the people deserving of having a scholarly opinion on human nature.

Please do not contaminate their greatness with someone as utterly irrelevant as Noam Chomsky.


Chomsky is a well known linguist, so his statements on human nature are damned important.


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LKL
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25 Mar 2014, 12:01 am

RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

Who said anything about racism? I'm talking about kin selection - that goes out to about the cousin level, and no further, and applies whether your cousins look like you or not.
Quote:
Anarchists in Spain and Ukraine were able to have large scale policy because of federalism.

Federalism and anarchism are sort of antithetical, don't you think?

Nope
Anarchists are not anti-organization. Many of us are open to the idea of assemblies having delegates on rotation.
I also don't believe people need to be related to cooperate with each other. Just look at some communes around today, like the Acorn Community.

Lack of kinship doesn't preclude altruism or cooperation, but the presence of it does make it more likely and cheating less likely.

It sounds like you're talking about a somewhat more relaxed form of anarchism - ie, a system in which people *do* recognize that the community or the commons can have some authority over the individual, as opposed to the 'pure' anarchism where there is no system of authority and no formal rules. Is that correct?



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25 Mar 2014, 12:51 am

Read The Giver and there is a movie based on an essay written by someone and I forget what the movie is called. It takes place somewhere in the 2040's and everyone lives like it;s the 1950's and everyone has the same intelligence and gets the same grades and everyone owns the same items.

Yeah I don;t want to live that way and also look at what happened to Russia and Cuba.


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Stannis
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25 Mar 2014, 1:01 am

Warsie wrote:
kazma wrote:
the idea behind it sounds ok i think


The answer: The Bourgoeise and Ruling Classes and general majorities of several countries manipulated others against a communist society/mode of operation. They talk about 60 million dead soviet citizens that Stalin personally shot dead and then claim the millions of people killed due to capitalism and imperialism do not count because it's not "true" capitalism even if the same capitalist order results in plenty of dead people today (excess deaths from Iraq war ranges from 33k to one million depending on your sources, don't forget how many died from the sanctions in the decade before).

Oh, and don't forget how fun capitalism was for Russia and he rest of the former USSR with life expectance falling through the roof, countries losing electrification (Armenia for example) and general demographic collapse (check the demographics for Russia and Ukraine after USSR collapse, look at the population drop. Oh, and much of the major growth is from non-russian populations in Caucaus and illegal immigrants)

Image

GGPViper wrote:
Darwin. Dawkins. Haldane. Hamilton. Price. Wilson. Smith. Trivers.

Those are the people deserving of having a scholarly opinion on human nature.

Please do not contaminate their greatness with someone as utterly irrelevant as Noam Chomsky.


Chomsky is a well known linguist, so his statements on human nature are damned important.


Great, another person who is commenting on the clips without having seen them. They are not about human nature. They are about Libertarianism, and the U.S education system. They were posted because some people in this thread seem to be under the impression that Ayn Rand represents the complete spectrum of libertarian thought.



Warsie
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25 Mar 2014, 1:18 am

Stannis wrote:

Great, another person who is commenting on the clips without having seen them. They are not about human nature. They are about Libertarianism, and the U.S education system. They were posted because some people in this thread seem to be under the impression that Ayn Rand represents the complete spectrum of libertarian thought.


I was answering his 'chomsky has nothing on human nature' not the nature of your video.


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Stannis
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25 Mar 2014, 1:22 am

Warsie wrote:
Stannis wrote:

Great, another person who is commenting on the clips without having seen them. They are not about human nature. They are about Libertarianism, and the U.S education system. They were posted because some people in this thread seem to be under the impression that Ayn Rand represents the complete spectrum of libertarian thought.


I was answering his 'chomsky has nothing on human nature' not the nature of your video.


I see. My mistake :oops: