when is it considered aspergers and when is it personality?

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linatet
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09 Apr 2014, 2:25 pm

I know this is a long debated polemic question, but...
I was reading the reviews on Pretending to be Normal on Amazon and then I came to a reviewer that said Liane (the author) didn't have aspergers but only personality quirks that are part of the natural human diversity. Like it is perfectly normal for a person to want to leave a noisy room as not everyone is fond of crowded places or being distressed by some smell like the smell of pastrils as everyone has some sort of sensory issues.
Hmm I think they have a point here. Sometimes I am not so sure I have aspergers. Where do you think is the division of quirkiness and aspergers? I know some of you will say "impairment", but what exactly? I mean, everyone is impaired in some area in some way.
...I don't know. Any insights? Help?



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09 Apr 2014, 3:15 pm

This sounds too convoluted to me. I believe every person is unique but some are able to relate to other people more. Aspergers are assigned to a group presumably with a disability, this is debatable. Imagine if you had telepathic abilities but everyone else in the world, would that make other people disabled? No, because they're a majority in this world. Aspergers is just a diagnosis you can get, personality can share the same traits as this so called "disease".



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09 Apr 2014, 3:23 pm

I have one of her other books called Aspergers in the Family and she states quiet clearly that she has had a formal diagnosis. She may have recieved this diagnosis after writing the first book. I think Simon Baren Cohen diagnosed her if I remember correctly.

I am intrigued by your question too. I haven't been diagnosed, but people with diagnosed family members always seem to think that I am autistic. I think that I do ok. I am independantly living, I have one or two friends and I am content with my hobbies. I have a good life, but I guess when I think about it I am socially impaired. I definately have communication problems and have trouble expressing my feelings. When I explain myself often people don't understand what I am going on about. I feel that on Wrong Planet I have found people who finally understand what I have gone through my whole life. I feel impaired in employment situations. I don't get the office politics. I find it difficult to communicate with clients. I get stressed when instructions are not clear. Is that my personality or a sign of a more significat neurological disorder?



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09 Apr 2014, 3:48 pm

The way the psychologist explained it to my mom is that it has to do with the number of different type traits (clustering) and the severity.

I am considered by others to be socially awkward, it never occurred to me that others see me that way because I am consistent with my own social rules. I still have trouble understanding that not everyone is honest when they tell me something (not that I do not know people lie, I just assume that when they tell me something they are telling me their perceived truth). I do not consider that people are different from me. I also never make eye contact, thus I never realize that others do. I do not perceive changes in tone of voice easily. I do not remember faces outside of the context that they are first received/expected (including family members). I cannot remember names.

I have moderately severe sensory problems. This is much more than finding some noises or lighting or smells annoying. It can shut me down. These sensory problems are very painful even.

There are executive function problems, determined by tests. My messiness is not wanting to be messy and disorganized it is problems with executive functioning, ordering tasks, remembering daily tasks (did I do it or not today?) etc. It does not mean I cannot do these things, but that it takes more time, or systems in place to allow me to do things normally.

Also language/ speech differences. My speech does not have a smooth porosity when I am stressed and I will monologue on science from any starting subject before I realize it and stop myself.

Then there are associated co-,morbid: depression, auditory processing problems, anxiety etc. These are secondary and arise from the above listed. Well central auditory processing is not because of other symptoms but from messed up neurology.

Yet with all these different types of symptoms, all of which interfere with my life, I am considered high functioning.


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09 Apr 2014, 3:54 pm

I don't like the use of the word disorder. I think there is often variation in a species. I see it more as a particular set of adaptations. Whether that adaptation is beneficial or not would depend on variables such as the environment the organism was functioning in.

That is an over simplification as how various adaptations work together in an individual combined with things like environment, diet, socio economic and educational background, cutural influences and so on is complicated.

I'd like to pose the question what is personality and where does it come from? Is personality determined by a persons neurology or at least influenced by it? is there a genetic basis to personality and if so what role does epigenetics (sp?) play in the development of certain traits and characteristics.

And whilst we are at it where does consciouness come from.

I am going to assume that one difference between personality quirks and a neurological disorder may have to do with how the brain itself processes information. It is probably possible to have personality quirks without processing difficulties for example.



linatet
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09 Apr 2014, 4:06 pm

agreed dizzee, agreed hurtloam.
Hmm it's complicated.
like you nebrets I also struggle with anxiety, prosopagnosia, executive disfunction etc and some sounds and textures actually hurt.
But I am very functioning. I mean, other people don't even realize I have aspergers and I can live the everyday life. I don't like to say I am autistic because I think it gives the wrong idea.. I don't know if you will understand but I think it is even disrespectful to those classical autistics that have real hard struggles as I am so functioning.
at the same time I think Sheldon for instance is more functioning than I am. He is more rigid than me but he doesn't have sensory processing issues, executive disfunction or meltdowns. He can keep his job without any obvious struggle and doesn't need specialized help. So why is he an aspie? Because of his way of thinking? But what is the sense of it then? this is only an example and he is not even a real person but you people understand what I mean?
I don't know :? when is it really aspergers?

Quote:
I have one of her other books called Aspergers in the Family and she states quiet clearly that she has had a formal diagnosis. She may have recieved this diagnosis after writing the first book. I think Simon Baren Cohen diagnosed her if I remember correctly.

I think she was diagnosed by Attwood. I don't like Cohen anyway.
I too have a diagnosis but still... psychologists are not even coherent, some places diagnose some cases that others don't. Specially in the high functioning end of people like me (and the majority of those I have met here in wp). Some specialists say aspergers is being underdiagnosed and a lot of people are being missed, others say aspergers is being overdiagnosed and a lot of people that didn't need the diagnosis are receiving it.

add: I am not ignoring you I hadn't seen your answer, bumble.
and it still gets more complicated



Last edited by linatet on 09 Apr 2014, 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

skibum
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09 Apr 2014, 4:07 pm

I think it has to do with severity and number of traits and the frequency of them as well. I had this same conversation just yesterday with the SO rep. She asked me if my Asperger's was impairing my life. I said, "I am not sure because I am still alive so maybe it's not." But when we talked about it more she said that the fact that it has been impossible for me to ever live completely independently, the fact that I have a very difficult time holding down jobs, the fact that sounds can affect me so deeply that I actually get physically ill and lights can do that sometimes as well, the fact that I have difficulty with a lot of executive function skills, the fact that other people can attest that I am odd in relationships and sometimes have trouble with communication especially if it is not a subject matter that I am "good" at, the fact that I had that Aspie stare in photographs when I was little and had trouble making a lot of real friends in my preteen and teen years, The fact that I stim and have certain rituals which are subtle none the less still rituals, the fact that I hyperfocus, I have meltdowns and shutdowns, my speech deteriorates under stress, these are all indications.

Now you can take each one separately and if you look at them one at a time everyone does all of them a little bit even if they are NT's. But the question now is do they do them every day or multiple times a day? Do they do them to a degree that they have difficulty managing daily life? I don't have debilitating trouble every single moment of every single day but I have trouble frequently enough that it keeps me from living like a "normal" person.

An analogy that I made the other day might be helpful. Everyone sneezes or coughs every now and then. Everyone has a body ache every now and then. Every one might get a little annoying low grade fever every now and then. If you get these individual symptoms every once in a while and they don't keep you from getting out of bed and going about our day you barely pay any attention to them. But if you have them all at the same time and more severely and you can't get out of bed you then start thinking you might have the flu. So you either have the flu or you don't and you can usually tell by the amounts of symptoms you have at once and by how severe they are. So similarly with Autism, you can see the symptoms and see how frequently you have them and how severely they affect you.


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09 Apr 2014, 4:13 pm

When you fit the diagnostic criteria...

Let's put it this way. Everyone can be awkward and has some situations in which they are awkward. Not everyone struggles with facial expressions, cognitive empathy, etc. Everyone has smells or sounds they're not fond of. Not everyone has smells or sounds that overload them beyond what the majority experiences.

I hate Asperger's stereotypes.



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09 Apr 2014, 4:13 pm

I've wondered the same too. When is something a distress and an impairment? Sure there are things kids and adults do that drive their parents crazy and other adults around them but when is it really distress? My son has a weird phase now where he will want to eat something and by the time I give it to him, he doesn't want it all of a sudden and I got so sick of this game I decided I am not giving him anything else. My dad made him Eggos this morning and he wouldn't eat it so my dad ended up eating it and I ate the other part and I refused to give him anything else for breakfast. But he has done other things in the past that have given me distress but is it distress? Sometimes it's the parent with the problem, not the child because of their own impairments the parent has.

Even as a child I was not aware of any impairments I had but I spent my time going to doctors and therapy and I felt fine then too. I knew it was other people with the problem but yet they make it be our fault. But that was how I also knew I was different because I noticed I was an easier target to be picked on and singled out and be treated different by school staff. It was okay for other kids to misbehave and break rules but not me and it was unfair and even my mom agrees it is unfair but this is pretty common with special needs kids. I also know for a fact a normal kid can easily get away with breaking a social rule but not someone with a disability. They would be corrected about it while they would ignore a normal student doing it. This was the BS I noticed at age ten.

When is something a quirk or a personality or an impairment? I don't know. That is why labels are so complicated and why it's not a good idea to self diagnose. I don't think I would have even guessed I had a problem if I was never told. It wouldn't occur to me to go to a therapist to talk about how stressful things are and why do things have to be so hard for me and simple things and how some people are unhelpful. It still doesn't occur to me.


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09 Apr 2014, 5:03 pm

linatet wrote:
I know this is a long debated polemic question, but...
I was reading the reviews on Pretending to be Normal on Amazon and then I came to a reviewer that said Liane (the author) didn't have aspergers but only personality quirks that are part of the natural human diversity. Like it is perfectly normal for a person to want to leave a noisy room as not everyone is fond of crowded places or being distressed by some smell like the smell of pastrils as everyone has some sort of sensory issues.
Hmm I think they have a point here. Sometimes I am not so sure I have aspergers. Where do you think is the division of quirkiness and aspergers? I know some of you will say "impairment", but what exactly? I mean, everyone is impaired in some area in some way.
...I don't know. Any insights? Help?


Asperger Syndrome is not a set of quirky behaviors. The behavioral symptoms are a direct result of the AUTISM, which is a sensory processing disorder, that's the whole point of diagnosis, to test one's sensory processing functions, as well as the social impairments.

If you only have social impairments, but your brain is processing sensory stimuli normally, you don't have autism.

People have got to get past this notion that Asperger Syndrome is nothing but a social skills impairment - those are SYMPTOMS, not the CAUSE of the disorder.


>>Link: Autistic Brains Hyper-Connected<<



Last edited by Willard on 09 Apr 2014, 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

nebrets
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09 Apr 2014, 5:11 pm

skibum wrote:
I think it has to do with severity and number of traits and the frequency of them as well. I had this same conversation just yesterday with the SO rep. She asked me if my Asperger's was impairing my life. I said, "I am not sure because I am still alive so maybe it's not." But when we talked about it more she said that the fact that it has been impossible for me to ever live completely independently, the fact that I have a very difficult time holding down jobs, the fact that sounds can affect me so deeply that I actually get physically ill and lights can do that sometimes as well, the fact that I have difficulty with a lot of executive function skills, the fact that other people can attest that I am odd in relationships and sometimes have trouble with communication especially if it is not a subject matter that I am "good" at, the fact that I had that Aspie stare in photographs when I was little and had trouble making a lot of real friends in my preteen and teen years, The fact that I stim and have certain rituals which are subtle none the less still rituals, the fact that I hyperfocus, I have meltdowns and shutdowns, my speech deteriorates under stress, these are all indications.

Now you can take each one separately and if you look at them one at a time everyone does all of them a little bit even if they are NT's. But the question now is do they do them every day or multiple times a day? Do they do them to a degree that they have difficulty managing daily life? I don't have debilitating trouble every single moment of every single day but I have trouble frequently enough that it keeps me from living like a "normal" person.

An analogy that I made the other day might be helpful. Everyone sneezes or coughs every now and then. Everyone has a body ache every now and then. Every one might get a little annoying low grade fever every now and then. If you get these individual symptoms every once in a while and they don't keep you from getting out of bed and going about our day you barely pay any attention to them. But if you have them all at the same time and more severely and you can't get out of bed you then start thinking you might have the flu. So you either have the flu or you don't and you can usually tell by the amounts of symptoms you have at once and by how severe they are. So similarly with Autism, you can see the symptoms and see how frequently you have them and how severely they affect you.


Good explanation. And I agree with coffeebean about meeting diagnostic criteria.


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09 Apr 2014, 5:48 pm

Neurological vs psychological

Aspergers consists of terrible social skills, sensory input sensitivity, and coordination and balance issues ( to name a few basic problems)

Social skills: a person can be introverted and just dislike talking to someone, but someone with Social Anxiety can completely forget what to do in a social situation due to the panic and fear.

a person with aspergers is born without the inborn knowledge of social cues, anxiety and introversion may develop because of the abscents of knowing what to do.

Sensory input Sensitivity; speaks for itself, but there are some people who are just quiet and become stress in a loud and bright area, but for aspies is plain pain. we cant handle it!

Coordination and Balance: its not uncommon for someone to have poor balance but its consistant with aspergers.

another factor (regardless of what people think, this is what i know) is IQ.

there are four different types of I.Q

Verbal and Language

Information Processing speed

Working Memory

Visual and hands on

people with Autism generally have a low I.Q in Verbal and Language, Information processing speed. and Working memory. however some people with Aspergers have a normal Verbal and Language I.Q.


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09 Apr 2014, 6:43 pm

linatet wrote:
But I am very functioning. I mean, other people don't even realize I have aspergers and I can live the everyday life. I don't like to say I am autistic because I think it gives the wrong idea.. I don't know if you will understand but I think it is even disrespectful to those classical autistics that have real hard struggles as I am so functioning.
at the same time I think Sheldon for instance is more functioning than I am. He is more rigid than me but he doesn't have sensory processing issues, executive disfunction or meltdowns. He can keep his job without any obvious struggle and doesn't need specialized help. So why is he an aspie? Because of his way of thinking? But what is the sense of it then? this is only an example and he is not even a real person but you people understand what I mean?
I don't know :? when is it really aspegers.

I was surprised when I joined WP and found out that people here consider the character Sheldon Cooper to have Aspergers.
I have seen the show and thought he was a comic caricature of a nerd, but not autistic.
My idea of Asperger syndrome was more like the character Rizwan Khan from My Name is Khan.
He was very socially detached and obviously autistic.
If there is a spectrum that goes from completely neurotypical to LFA as in Simon Baron Cohen's diagram, then it makes sense that there are no clear boundaries and diagnoses depends on degree of impairment.
It seems to me though, that if something goes wrong with the way the brain develops prenatally, that there should be a definite boundary between autism and neurotypical.
Maybe there is an overlap between traits caused by autism and normal personality traits that are part of natural human diversity.



linatet
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09 Apr 2014, 7:33 pm

Marybird wrote:
I was surprised when I joined WP and found out that people here consider the character Sheldon Cooper to have Aspergers.
I have seen the show and thought he was a comic caricature of a nerd, but not autistic.


Quote:
Asperger Syndrome is not a set of quirky behaviors. The behavioral symptoms are a direct result of the AUTISM, which is a sensory processing disorder, that's the whole point of diagnosis, to test one's sensory processing functions, as well as the social impairments.

If you only have social impairments, but your brain is processing sensory stimuli normally, you don't have autism.

People have got to get past this notion that Asperger Syndrome is nothing but a social skills impairment - those are SYMPTOMS, not the CAUSE of the disorder.


>>Link: Autistic Brains Hyper-Connected<<

sheldon for instance has asperger traits, but he doesn't seem to have sensory processing issues. does it mean he can't have it?
people that have the traits but don't have sensory processing issues don't have aspergers?
also sensory processing issues is not even in the diagnostic criteria.



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09 Apr 2014, 7:48 pm

Marybird wrote:
linatet wrote:
But I am very functioning. I mean, other people don't even realize I have aspergers and I can live the everyday life. I don't like to say I am autistic because I think it gives the wrong idea.. I don't know if you will understand but I think it is even disrespectful to those classical autistics that have real hard struggles as I am so functioning.
at the same time I think Sheldon for instance is more functioning than I am. He is more rigid than me but he doesn't have sensory processing issues, executive disfunction or meltdowns. He can keep his job without any obvious struggle and doesn't need specialized help. So why is he an aspie? Because of his way of thinking? But what is the sense of it then? this is only an example and he is not even a real person but you people understand what I mean?
I don't know :? when is it really aspegers.

I was surprised when I joined WP and found out that people here consider the character Sheldon Cooper to have Aspergers.
I have seen the show and thought he was a comic caricature of a nerd, but not autistic.
My idea of Asperger syndrome was more like the character Rizwan Khan from My Name is Khan.
He was very socially detached and obviously autistic.
If there is a spectrum that goes from completely neurotypical to LFA as in Simon Baron Cohen's diagram, then it makes sense that there are no clear boundaries and diagnoses depends on degree of impairment.
It seems to me though, that if something goes wrong with the way the brain develops prenatally, that there should be a definite boundary between autism and neurotypical.
Maybe there is an overlap between traits caused by autism and normal personality traits that are part of natural human diversity.

My grandma thinks Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory is autistic. She says she sees a lot of similarities between him and myself.. Socially. I'm definitely nowhere near as smart as Sheldon :P



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09 Apr 2014, 8:06 pm

I just posted this in another thread about this blog: LINK


Here is an excerpt, the author says:

"That’s the way things are—there is an intricate set of thousands of social rules, and we’re all sharply attuned to them. If we weren't, we’d be sent away somewhere. Even being nearly perfect will get you into trouble—you can have 98% of the rules down cold, but that last 2% will leave you with a reputation of “rude” or “weird” or “creepy.”

Then she does on to chronicle social difficulties with subtle things that probably many NTs and ASDers have. People with ASD along with people with other clinical level social impairment caused by other things would be the ones who have a reputation of being "rude", "weird" or "creepy", who aren't sharply attuned to the intricate set of social rules.

I think that's relevant to this thread because , yes, NTs can and do have trouble with social interaction and some have a lot more trouble than others but they still are sharply attuned enough to the thousands of social rules to not have a reputation of being very odd or rude or creepy. They may be thought of as socially awkward or eccentric, a little weird but they would not be thought so odd or rude that it stops them getting hired for a job or making and keeping friends etc. Of-course not everyone who does have social problems to that extent is autistic, there are other disorders that could cause that impairment but someone without that level of impairment would more likely just have an autistic-like personality than autism.