when is it considered aspergers and when is it personality?

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linatet
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10 Apr 2014, 5:28 pm

foxfield wrote:
I would like to point out that people tend to be biased by the way questions are phrased. I think this is the source of many peoples "Asperger's is just a personality quirk" beliefs.

For example if you ask someone
1. Do you enjoy crowded gatherings?
The vast majority of people will answer no, AS or not, because "crowded" of course has an inbuilt negative connotation. The
assertion that AS people do not like crowds will confuse NTs. I mean, no-one much like crowds, so what's the big deal???

If however, you ask the question like this
2. Do you enjoy situations in which you have the oppourtunity to communicate with a wide variety of friendly people?
The vast majority of people will answer yes, because of the positive connotations of the question. But AS people I think are still likely to say no, because of the potential to be overwhelmed by such a situation.

My point is this: its all about how you phrase things. The way AS symptoms are phrased often sound just like natural personality traits, when they really are not.

I actually like that.
instead of asking for instance "are there annoying sounds, textures, smells etc that overwhelm or distress you?" which both nt's and aspies may answer yes, we could ask "what do you feel when you hear the annoying sound, wear clothes with a texture you hate etc?" aspies are much more likely to answer "pain"



Last edited by linatet on 10 Apr 2014, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

linatet
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10 Apr 2014, 7:16 pm

EverythingShimmers wrote:
Quote:
An example of the personality thing, I have an aspie best friend, I call her like that, she was never evaluated but she has the same traits as I do. When we were 10 yo or so we were nearly the same and with the same issues. Then she moved to another state and now we are 19 yo and our traits developed very differently! She went through anorexia, depression, she doesn't have "real life" friends and spend all day on the computer and her traits now are much worse than mine. I think this is because of personality and life outcomes. But if someone tries really hard to be able to do things and overcome some struggles it doesn't mean they don't have it anymore, right? Like, we both get lost, but I take buses because I have to in order to go to college. She doesn't even want to try buses. Then she is always going to be dependent on her parents driving her around and I will be more "independent" and "milder" even though the symptom is the same to the same intensity. Do you know what I mean?
I don't know if it contributes to the discussion but you understand what I mean? Two people may have the same impairments but one considered too mild to be on the spectrum (not my case but could be). Like she is dependent on her parents, spends all day on the computer, barely leaves her room and doesn't have actual friends. I go to college and have friends and move around even though we actually have the same intensity of traits. I appear to be much milder but in reality I am not.


This.

I think this is a perfect example. I know exactly what you're getting at here. The bus thing is a great illustration of your point and is something I relate to as well. I think the first time I ever took a bus (at 14, with my mom) I was really overwhelmed by the sounds, smells, people, and how long it took for what should have been a quick drive. I hated it and decided I would avoid taking buses at all costs. But when I reached adulthood and realized that I couldn't afford a car and it would be stupid to have one when my school was so close, I was forced to start using the bus. The first few times I must have seemed incredibly ret*d: I fell over on people, knocked into people with my backpack, panicked and froze for half an hour when the one bus I was waiting for didn't arrive - when I could have just walked to a different route, and I didn't realize that only the front door opened for people getting on - so I stood at the back door and got yelled at by the driver. The list could go on.

Maybe being autistic made it a little harder to learn a new thing and to get used to doing something different, but I still learned it. Now I think of the bus as a pretty routine thing, as opposed to a horrifying complicated process where angry bus drivers are liable to yell at me at any given point. The thing is, it was just about experience. Everything we do in life gets better with experience. If we don't do anything, then we will seem like we can't do anything.

:) yes
and I had a similar experience with buses!
when I learned to take buses I was 14 yo too. First times my mother went with me, then others she said "pretend I am not here" and I would do everything as If I was alone and she would go behind observing me. Then later I managed to do it on my own. Nowadays it is a routine thing. But I honestly didn't have much of a choice, I had to learn it for sheer necessity.
(off topic) people that don't know me well think I am very laid-back because of executive dysfunction, others that do know me like my sister may see me as rigid and pessimistic, but I am totally not. Based on how much more rigid I would have been, and instead I am always trying new things, I have a very positive attitude. For other people though the hard new things I am always trying to do are not hard nor new.



Last edited by linatet on 10 Apr 2014, 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EverythingShimmers
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10 Apr 2014, 7:29 pm

League Girl, I like what you said. That actually makes a ton of sense. Autism is a physiological condition, not a personality. We have a condition, and our personality as well. The condition might make it harder to notice social cues or to learn some things, but the underlying personality will drive things like willingness to learn, openness, and reactions to confrontation, etc. That's a major reason why we have so many differences from one aspie to the next.

I also really, REALLY agree with what foxfield said. I sometimes wonder why some of these questions are so badly thought-out! I've noticed these kinds of problems. Negative and positive connotations are really important in language. The best would be to find some kind of neutral where the question is designed to have neither a positive nor a negative connotation and it will test what connotation the person applies to it themselves.

Actual scenario questions might work better for this kind of thing, although they have the problem of being too culturally subjective. But, just using a typical North American scenario, an example could be something kind of like this:

"You are invited to a house party. The host estimates about 100 guests. Are you:
A. excited at the idea of mingling with a bunch of new people
B. looking forward to hanging out with the person who invited you at the party
C. a little apprehensive about attending, but consider showing up for just a short while
D. really not into this kind of thing and don't want to go

But you can't really get away from the connotations since "party" is fairly positive: it implies that the person who invited you is someone with whom you're friendly. I would probably choose "B" or "C" because I would imagine that I like the person who invited me and would want to attend for their sake. I might even choose "A" because meeting a bunch of friendly people who you never have to see again and you are under no obligation to can be kind of fun - leaving early is still an option if things go bad! However, my aspie partner would still choose "D" - even when his good friend hosts a party he refuses to go. He hates the idea of parties. So.. I guess this question would "work" on him.

But what about a question like this:

"You are shopping for groceries in the supermarket. Suddenly you are surrounded by a huge crowd of people. You look up to see a sign and realize that the supermarket is having a one-hour super-sale promotion on something you don't want to buy. Do you:
A. have a panic attack and drop your shopping basket - you'll get your food later
B. feel really uncomfortable and make haste to leave
C. keep shopping like normal
D. strike up a conversation with some of the members of the crowd

What do you guys think about this?



Last edited by EverythingShimmers on 10 Apr 2014, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Apr 2014, 7:53 pm

linatet wrote:
people that don't know me well think I am very laid-back because of executive dysfunction, others that do know me like my sister may see me as rigid and pessimistic, but I am totally not. Based on how much more rigid I would have been, and instead I am always trying new things, I have a very positive attitude. For other people though the hard new things I am always trying to do are not hard nor new.


I relate to this! People that don't know me well (particularly in class) see me as outgoing and easygoing because I've learned how to appear confident and laid-back, and I usually have a positive attitude. (And I sit at the front of the classroom and have a lot of things to say.) However, I am incredibly scheduled and rigid.. but somehow still pretty easygoing. It's complicated!

"For other people though the hard new things I am always trying to do are not hard nor new" - yes. I could use to make myself do more "hard/new" things, but it's usually other people making me try them and I often realize they aren't actually so bad in the end.



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11 Apr 2014, 8:34 am

EverythingShimmers wrote:
League Girl, I like what you said. That actually makes a ton of sense. Autism is a physiological condition, not a personality. We have a condition, and our personality as well. The condition might make it harder to notice social cues or to learn some things, but the underlying personality will drive things like willingness to learn, openness, and reactions to confrontation, etc. That's a major reason why we have so many differences from one aspie to the next.

I also really, REALLY agree with what foxfield said. I sometimes wonder why some of these questions are so badly thought-out! I've noticed these kinds of problems. Negative and positive connotations are really important in language. The best would be to find some kind of neutral where the question is designed to have neither a positive nor a negative connotation and it will test what connotation the person applies to it themselves.

Actual scenario questions might work better for this kind of thing, although they have the problem of being too culturally subjective. But, just using a typical North American scenario, an example could be something kind of like this:

"You are invited to a house party. The host estimates about 100 guests. Are you:
A. excited at the idea of mingling with a bunch of new people
B. looking forward to hanging out with the person who invited you at the party
C. a little apprehensive about attending, but consider showing up for just a short while
D. really not into this kind of thing and don't want to go

But you can't really get away from the connotations since "party" is fairly positive: it implies that the person who invited you is someone with whom you're friendly. I would probably choose "B" or "C" because I would imagine that I like the person who invited me and would want to attend for their sake. I might even choose "A" because meeting a bunch of friendly people who you never have to see again and you are under no obligation to can be kind of fun - leaving early is still an option if things go bad! However, my aspie partner would still choose "D" - even when his good friend hosts a party he refuses to go. He hates the idea of parties. So.. I guess this question would "work" on him.

But what about a question like this:

"You are shopping for groceries in the supermarket. Suddenly you are surrounded by a huge crowd of people. You look up to see a sign and realize that the supermarket is having a one-hour super-sale promotion on something you don't want to buy. Do you:
A. have a panic attack and drop your shopping basket - you'll get your food later
B. feel really uncomfortable and make haste to leave
C. keep shopping like normal
D. strike up a conversation with some of the members of the crowd

What do you guys think about this?



I never liked those type of questions because most of the times, the multiple choice answers never fit me so I always fit for closest and it makes it inaccurate.

As for the second one, I would definitely keep on shopping like normal because I know sales intend to get them to make more money because people buy on impulse when they see things on sale and end up spending more money than they usually do on groceries. But that is how businesses make their money. I am money obsessed so that is why I am immune to it. Sometimes I will buy what is on sale if I like the item but I don't go buying bunch of stuff.


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11 Apr 2014, 12:49 pm

League_Girl wrote:
EverythingShimmers wrote:

"You are invited to a house party. The host estimates about 100 guests. Are you:
A. excited at the idea of mingling with a bunch of new people
B. looking forward to hanging out with the person who invited you at the party
C. a little apprehensive about attending, but consider showing up for just a short while
D. really not into this kind of thing and don't want to go


I never liked those type of questions because most of the times, the multiple choice answers never fit me so I always fit for closest and it makes it inaccurate.


I hate these types of questions as well. As, the answer depends upon a number of factors:
a) Who invited me?
b) What is the occasion?
c) Do I know people (other than the host) who will be attending?
d) Of the people I know who are attending (either friends or acquaintances), am I interested in talking to any of them?
e) Will my wife be attending?
f) What will I be required to wear?
g) Will the events at the party be structured or unstructured? By unstructured, I mean the party consists only of conversing with people? By structured, maybe people are getting together to watch a football game. Or, maybe they are getting together to perform a religious ceremony (like a Passover seder). Or, maybe they have arranged a speaker to discuss an interesting topic.
h) Will I be able to leave early, without being considered rude?

Generally, my answer is a combination of C and D. As a note, I may not want to attend, but still attend (say because my wife is attending or out of obligation).

Fortunately, this (being invited to a party) does not happen that often. So, I don’t need to think about it.

As a note, B seems to be a poorly constructed answer (as if the person inviting you is the host, they will be too busy to “hang out” with).



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11 Apr 2014, 1:50 pm

I had no idea it was considered rude to leave a party early. My husband and I always leave early. Now with a child, we have an excuse. :wink:

Only thing I like about parties is the food and I do my own thing. I bring what I enjoy doing. As a kid, I would play with the toys that their kids had there and be off by myself so parties were never a problem for me. Also I have been to a party in one of my autism groups and it was movies and video games and food. Sadly that group folded because the leader got too busy with school and life. I have never been to a party with 100 people. I am still not sure what answer I would choose. Maybe C since I always leave sooner than anyone else.


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11 Apr 2014, 1:56 pm

To the original question: it's aspergers when virtually all aspects of your life are impaired due to it. When you can never do "fun things" that involve other people because you don't understand, and can't properly communicate with people on the social and interpersonal level. When you spend most of the day so absorbed into something, often essentially meaningless, that you actually forget that you are all alone most of the time. When the only times you communicate with other people in any sense is when you are in the presence of other people for concrete, set reasons, like work/school/family. When you don't know what the feeling of loneliness (or connection for that matter) is even though you haven't had anything close to a real friend since childhood. When you find it extremely hard and confusing to do tasks that are not entirely repetitive routine-tasks.

That's how it is for me at least, some of it.

I also very much agree with those that say personality is a separate thing from aspergers. For me, I'd say my general passivity and reclusiveness is at least 90% due to my aspergers and that my personality is actually the little underlying driving force I have behind the disability that allows me to even think of trying to do new things, be as sociable as I can and better myself. I know I have a decent personality, because even some professionals who have come to know me have told me I am "nice", "sympathetic" and so on. I always do all I can to be as forthcoming and nice to other people, am very agreeable and avoid quarrelling with people, but still due to my asperger people often seem to only see me superficially as "cold", "asocial", "naive", "weird" and other bad things. It's not that I don't care that I push people away, it's that I don't know how not to.



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11 Apr 2014, 4:36 pm

quote="EverythingShimmers"]…
"You are invited to a house party. The host estimates about 100 guests. Are you:
A. excited at the idea of mingling with a bunch of new people
B. looking forward to hanging out with the person who invited you at the party
C. a little apprehensive about attending, but consider showing up for just a short while
D. really not into this kind of thing and don't want to go[/quote]
[/quote]

D, definately.


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EverythingShimmers
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11 Apr 2014, 4:44 pm

Ugh, sorry guys! Those questions I came up with are pretty awful. I don't really know what I was thinking last night - "thinking out loud" to you guys I guess. I actually don't like scenario-type questions either, for the same reasons you mentioned (good list Rocket123!). I guess the conclusion I reached is that, with any kind of verbal test questions, you can't escape subjectivity and connotation.


Quote:
To the original question: it's aspergers when virtually all aspects of your life are impaired due to it. When you can never do "fun things" that involve other people because you don't understand, and can't properly communicate with people on the social and interpersonal level. When you spend most of the day so absorbed into something, often essentially meaningless, that you actually forget that you are all alone most of the time. When the only times you communicate with other people in any sense is when you are in the presence of other people for concrete, set reasons, like work/school/family. When you don't know what the feeling of loneliness (or connection for that matter) is even though you haven't had anything close to a real friend since childhood. When you find it extremely hard and confusing to do tasks that are not entirely repetitive routine-tasks.


This stuff may be true for some, but not for all people with Aspergers. Some are outgoing and love doing fun things with other people, get lonely easily, and regularly seek out interaction even when there isn't a concrete reason. The difference is that the extroverted aspie will still come across as odd and unnatural in their approach to social interaction - or they will at least have needed to put in a much more conscious effort to learn the social "rules" that come more naturally to neurotypicals.

Quote:
I also very much agree with those that say personality is a separate thing from aspergers. For me, I'd say my general passivity and reclusiveness is at least 90% due to my aspergers and that my personality is actually the little underlying driving force I have behind the disability that allows me to even think of trying to do new things, be as sociable as I can and better myself. I know I have a decent personality, because even some professionals who have come to know me have told me I am "nice", "sympathetic" and so on. I always do all I can to be as forthcoming and nice to other people, am very agreeable and avoid quarrelling with people, but still due to my asperger people often seem to only see me superficially as "cold", "asocial", "naive", "weird" and other bad things. It's not that I don't care that I push people away, it's that I don't know how not to.


This is really interesting and I think you describe very well how things are for most of us.