What is lying?

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Hi, all,

I have a question about fear of lying and honesty. I have Aspergers (still in shock over this) and OCD. I am wondering if anyone without OCD (if that's really even possible in Aspergers ) has these same problems or if it is really where OCD and Aspergers are intertwined.

I have problems with truth-telling. I feel bound by the truth which I believe is a good thing, however I think most people who aren't would call it more as being concerned with specificity and being overly concerned with clarity. I can't think of the right words.

I used to apologize to people for things that I said that I thought were lies. I needed to make sure they didn't misunderstand me because if they misunderstood me then it was a lie on my part. To take an example that may or may not have happened in real life but it is still a good example in a figurative sense though not a literal one that I can remember, say if I used the figure-of-speech, "She didn't say more than two words the whole time," I might have to go and clarify this to whomever I was talking to and say, "Well, I mean it was more than two words because she had to ask for things and she made a comment in class one day that was a lot more than two words. But you know what I mean right?" Conversely related, if someone said this to me, "You didn't say more than two words the whole time," I'd feel obligated to point out that I did say more than two words because I had to say "hi" to someone more than twice, because I asked for something or because I made a comment in class just to make sure that I wasn't letting them believe a lie in saying that I didn't say more than two words, wanting to make sure they and anyone within hearing distance knew that I didn't say less than two words or more than two words because that would be a lie. I know this is a figure-of-speech and people mean that so-and-so didn't talk a whole lot and that they were being rude or acting like they didn't want to be there. Sometimes it was as if I needed to prove that I did say more than two words so people wouldn't think I didn't want to be there. People often think that. That I don't want to be there or that I am not enjoying myself. It just looks that way on the outside I guess. Not that there are times that I am actually not enjoying myself or am off in my own thoughts. Anyway it was over things like this that I would have to go back and apologize for either in the moment or a few moments later in the conversation (which I do now because I am now better at talking more or more relaxed usually) or have to work up the nerve to approach them again sometimes weeks later to apologize. Also if were to use this phrase with me, I might think, "They must really have said more than two words because it is illogical for them to have gotten by in this situation without more than two words. They had to have asked for the bathroom or been asked a question they couldn't avoid answering so they have said about x many words," so they they wouldn't be guilty of "lying" since I understood what they meant. I spent a lot of time and energy and anxiety on apologizing for things like this when I was younger and when you've apologized more than once for something trying to figure out if the other person is just being nice by saying it is okay and doesn't matter or if they are really bothered by it, you start to look like a crazy person or a stalker. It is very much worse with people I really like. Now I have learned to curb the need to confess things by telling myself they understand what I meant or that it doesn't matter but I still have a lot of anxiety over these things that builds up over time.

This anxiety over lying extends to things like when someone asks what I have been thinking about lately if I don't tell them everything especially things that concern them, I feel like I am lying. Partly because I think they should know and partly because I don't want them to think better of me than they ought and because I think they'll know anyway or that they will find out somehow anyway eventually. I also feel the need to confess if I thought something bad, usually one of those intrusive OCD thoughts you wish you didn't have, about someone to that person and to apologize to them for it, seeking forgiveness. You can see how this might come across as creepy and weird if I made this confession to someone I don't know very well or rarely talk to. Luckily, I am too shy to be prone to actually acting on making these sorts of confessions, because logically, I know they don't know and they might not care to know and they may not need to know, but my guilt is so great I feel ashamed and then I think they must know that I am embarrassed or guilty or ashamed and then they might ask why I can't look at them or am avoiding them and I'll have to tell them anyway.

I used to have a lot of guilt over leaving out information that probably wasn't really relevant but I thought it was still important. Basically giving too much information, I'd feel guilty and embarrassed. I unfortunately can become obsessed with people and talk to them somehow usually through writing and tell them way too much about myself and what I think and feel (like pages and pages at a time) even when I don't really know the person because I have a tendency to think that other people feel the same about me as I do about them when that isn't the case at all. So then I look like a crazy, stalkerish person who can't even speak to them in person and who seems mentally unstable. And I have had to curb and "disqualify" myself and keep myself from having any contact at all with these people. I hate myself for this and I don't even realize I have given too much information til after it is done and then I feel embarrassed and guilty and need to repeatedly apologize for bothering them. I know recognize this as a sort of search or yearning to another person like myself and that it extends from deep loneliness and was fueled by the knowledge when I was younger that most people won't wait around long enough to bother getting to know me and from feeling constantly caged and controlled and by selective mutism. I didn't know there was a name for that til now. I am also overly-trusting in some ways because I don't mean any judgement or harm towards others but unfortunately they often do.

I hold in the anxiety nowadays but it is still very much there and I make a lot of effort to correct things in the moment. Most people might call this "clarifying" things and asking for clarification. To this day I do not ask other people if something looks good on me or if they like my haircut so that I don't put them on the spot of having to lie just to spare my feelings because I wish other people wouldn't put me on the spot this way.

I wonder where this fits with Aspergers and OCD. I think the anxiety and fear must be the OCD acting on the literal thinking and impaired "theory of mind" in ASD. Does anyone else see this?

I also have trouble with things like I'll tell or write to someone one thing that I think and feel but then when that thought or feeling changes later I feel the need to go back and say I wasn't sure I felt that way then because now I feel differently or because I remembered something else related or because they will continue thinking the other because it was in writing and because what I think or feel "now" is a little different they are believing a lie. I imagine this comes a lot from alexithymia traits and from being sort of caught up in both the past and the present because I process things so slowly, especially things with high emotional content. Some of it might come from executive dysfunction-related things and having a poor concept of the passage of time? What are your thoughts?

I probably sound like a crazy person, but I am hoping from what other threads and posts have said, that I am in common company here on this stuff. I try to stay out this kind of thinking because it is so entrapping but I still have "subclinical" anxiety over it. I wonder if suppressing these anxieties and talking myself out of them and ignoring them when this is basically part of my being is related to the guilt I sometimes feel for no reason. Because it weighs on my conscience but my subconscious mind is trying to keep it under control with the result being that I can have attacks of intense guilt because I try to avoid apologizing now to avoid looking like a crazy person so there is no real outlet for the anxiety. Then I worry that the other person might not have understood I was using a figure of speech. And I could go on and on.

How do you handle this stuff?

I really, really hate OCD. I sometimes wonder if Aspergers might be easier to live with if there wasn't an OCD component or if the two can even be separated.

There are several reasons a person can say things that are "wrong";

1. Malicious intentional deception.
2. The sincerely believed error.
3. The poorly articulated inaccuracy.
4. The articulately phrased response to a question that was poorly understood.
5. Differing frames of reference such that words have different meanings and implications to different individuals.

Frequently you have to decode a question to obtain a fuller understanding. For example, if someone asks, "How are you?", they probably do not really want to know. A response of "Fine" is what is expected and not a health summary. You might be able to get away with something like, "My shoulder has been a little sore lately" as long as it is short, declarative, and does not require anything further from the inquirer.

Some supplements like Inositol can take a little of the edge off OCD. However, you may want to develop a few techniques to keep in your communication "tool box". Most people are not interested in razor sharp accuracy, they are only interested in functional accuracy. Responding with greater accuracy often causes people to resent you, think you are showing off, or criticizing them. Quite often a smile and a nod all all that is desired in the way of a response.

Sometimes things like this are rooted in a single bad experience which you have (probably subconsciously) extrapolated into a general rule of life. Using your example, you might have said to someone, once, "And she didn't say 2 words the whole time, " to which the other person said, "I know for a fact that she said FOUR words to you! You are a LIAR! You're worthless, don't ever talk to me again!" Think back to times when you either lied or ommitted info and were disproportionately critisized for it, and you may have your answer.

Personally, I definitely have a need to be honest, mainly because I am not an accomplished liar. This can make me appear crass and uncaring, when in reality it's just a limitation I have. But in your case, it seems to be different. You realize, as do I, that you have significant difficulty understanding sayings, analogies, etc. It sounds like you are postulating that limitation unto others. As a result, to avoid being misunderstood what you said, as you so frequently misunderstand what others say to you, you go through great trouble to be absolutely thorough with your communication. Certainly the need to communicate correctly is inherent in human interaction, so it's perfectly understandable, even if the result is far from socially acceptable.

With Asperger's I have been sometimes wondering if the dog is wagging the tail, or of the tail is wagging the dog. It's possible that this aspect of you is not a condition caused by your brain functionality, as much as a psychological reaction to your plight with Asperger's due to previous social interactions. You probably had bad experiences being misunderstand that resulted in humiliation of yourself, and hurt feelings for others. You are not going out of your way to ensure that doesn't happen again.

I could be completely wrong in my assessment, but there's my two cents for what they are worth.

The best explanation I know if is this.

It is a lie when you tell someone WHO HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH something that is not true...especially if your goal is to deprive them of something by being dishonest.

Morally, it's a gray area, but a good example is your name. Random people don't have a right to know who you are, what you do for a living, where you live, etc. You are justified to not reply with complete or accurate information. Of course, many would say it is easier to give nothing or tell them to mind their own business.

QuiversWhiskers, I think you are dealing with a kind of OCD that affects communication. With me I did this to try to ensure that I was connected to others (by sharing of information and hopefully experience.) It is a false path. This is not how you connect. You have no obligation to inform others of such details as you describe. And they will get irritated with you for doing so.

That seems more like an uncontrollable urge to interpret things literally rather than obsession with truth.

Yeah this doesn't sound like lying. Sounds more like your OCD playing up. I've felt guilt for hours sometimes after realising I gave someone bad road directions. I'd just have it stew in my mind and find it difficult to think of something else. That sounds similar to what you're saying but for me there were two things that were different.
1. I knew it wasn't lying.
2. The guilt was compounded by the fact that they were strangers and I would never be able to right the wrong. I'd imagine them getting lost and it being my fault. Ugh, it was a pretty crappy feeling.

As for lying, to me it is the conscious and intentional misrepresentation of reality as you understand it. For example if someone who honestly believes that Jesus Christ is humanity's lord and saviour and they told you that they wouldn't be lying. But I have a different view of reality so if I told you that I would be lying and vice versa if we were both to say something like 'Jesus was just a mortal man and philosopher'.

Thanks for your replies. You've given me a lot to think about in regards to this and that is good.

Lying is when someone says something that isn't true. (but if something is left unsaid, that is not lying) Mostly, at least.

But then again, there are a lot of phrases that are not supposed to take literally. And because other people do understand the true meaning of those words, saying them is not lying. (for example that situation you gave us as a example about "saying two words") Or other example: If I haven't seen some movie in, let's say, since I was a kid, I'd might say "I haven't seen that movie in hundred years!" Of course that's not true, at least not when taken literally. But because other people know that that just means I haven't seen it in a very long time, it's not lying.

Other good question is: How would you know when people know the true meaning of some phrase(s)? I don't know the answer. People just tend to know that. Or if you're autistic/have asperger's, then maybe not. But you could try to rely on phrases you hear a lot from other people. Then people are most likely to understand what you really mean.

Yep - this is true. I do this too (more so when I was younger) where I would have to correct myself immediately because I had said something that wasn't quite true and wanted to divulge all the details, or didn't want to give someone the wrong impression or false information. I'm not sure if I'm Aspie (although I seem to have a lot of the combined signs), but think this is more of a trait to do with OCD. I also used to seek constant reassurance, even when I knew what the person would say (sometimes I would ask what day it is, knowing it was Friday).

Remember that there are a lot of people out there suffering with OCD (and that includes people not on the spectrum), so you're not alone. It takes time and work to overcome these things, so don't be too hard on yourself. I try working on letting things go and stopping myself from thinking negatively like "Oh no, do they think this now" etc, as this will only make you feel worse.

Much hugs to you it's not an easy illness to deal with and I know how much it can hurt. Remember you are brave and resilient - not many people can cope with what us OCDers go through!

When someone tells dubious stories in order to try and keep them self out of trouble.