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CommanderKeen
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22 Jul 2014, 1:47 pm

They should really rename this site from "Wrong Planet" to "Beating a dead horse".



Geekonychus
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22 Jul 2014, 2:59 pm

This comic pretty much sums up this whole discussion:
Image



Tarentella. Don't you know that most men (75% according Sly's random guess) are decent people and not at all sexist/harrassers/rapists, etc? Therefore, even discussing male perpetuated sexism and harassment is clearly a misandrist attack on all men. Put your scissors away lady! :lol:



But seriously. Even if only .001% of men are full blown harassers, based on my experience at least 50% of men are the kind of people who's first response to a sexism discussion is to attempt to derail it with a completely irrelevent and off topic "Not all men" or "women can harass too" defense. At the very least they are guilty of perpetuating these issues by refusing to actually discuss and engage them.



Jono
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22 Jul 2014, 3:35 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
I walk into a store and a security guard stops me, tells me women have to wear a monitor inside the store.
I get all pissed off, sexism etc.
Guard explains that they have this problem with shoplifting and it's overwhelmingly women, in fact quite a large proportion of women are shoplifting.
I say, Wtf, are you serious?
He says, Yes ma'm, stats here.
I look at stats.
And my attitude changes.
I look at stats source and realize this is very likely real.
My attitude changes the rest of the way.
I decline to shop with a monitor, but leave shaken, convinced that something very f****d-up is happening with women, and that I need to find out what it is and see if this is something I need to lend a hand in correcting.

Notice how this doesn't end in my accusing the guard of calling me a shoplifter. (He hasn't.)
Nor does it end in my demanding he recognize that I'm not a shoplifter. (I don't actually care what he thinks.)
Notice also how this doesn't end in my calling him sexist.
Notice how it doesn't involve my hammering him with stats about men's shoplifting. Because it doesn't matter. What matters is that suddenly, some freaky large proportion of women are shoplifting, and this means there's a real problem amongst women.


Actually, that still sounds sexist and unfair to me, regardless of what the stats show. Even if most shoplifters turned out to be women, then it would still be profoundly unfair or even to put monitors on all women who enter the shop simply for being women because the numbers would still not mean that all women or even the majority of women are shoplifters.

This reminds me of when businessman Mirko Fischer sued British Airways for forcing him to change seats due to a sex discrimination policy that the airline had with seating adult male passengers with unaccompanied children. Apparently, the resigning for this policy was the same yours above, with respect to statistics that show that peadophiles are more likely to be male:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy

With regards to the policy on POF site, they could easily have flag mods who can take a look at a person's account and look at the photos if there are any complaints, or they can have a flagging system where users can flag messages sent them if they have a problem with them and then that would signal the mods to review them. It doesn't mean that all messages with pictures in them have to be reviewed, only the ones that are reported and it's really no different from moderating posts in an internet forum. The site owners just have to appoint enough people to do the moderating and they do that on OKCupid, I think.



sly279
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22 Jul 2014, 7:05 pm

Geekonychus wrote:
This comic pretty much sums up this whole discussion:
Image



Tarentella. Don't you know that most men (75% according Sly's random guess) are decent people and not at all sexist/harrassers/rapists, etc? Therefore, even discussing male perpetuated sexism and harassment is clearly a misandrist attack on all men. Put your scissors away lady! :lol:



But seriously. Even if only .001% of men are full blown harassers, based on my experience at least 50% of men are the kind of people who's first response to a sexism discussion is to attempt to derail it with a completely irrelevent and off topic "Not all men" or "women can harass too" defense. At the very least they are guilty of perpetuating these issues by refusing to actually discuss and engage them.


as they attack men and say the same thing when the tables are turned I don't see the point.
if a guy says most/women say or do something , she or SA will jump in call it sexist and say not all women .....

so how is men doing the same thing seen as derailing but when they do it its seen a as a needed quest to stop sexism.

I don't like being made to feel like a rapist, sex offender, A*****e, or another bad person just cause theres men who do it.

this is the same as the attacks on Muslims after 911. well the terrorist were Muslims so lets treat all Muslims like they are terrorist.
should we tell all Muslims, Irish, Russians it is their job to stand up to the terrorist who happen to be from their culture to stop. or do we blame those responsible for the crime.

wall mart has a few thefts, not enough to install cameras or hire extra security but they separate the store into sections, wall them off, tell employees to watch customers closely. they treat each customer as a thief, this makes shopping there really uncomfortable.

punish the guy who sends dick pictures. ban him from the site, block his ip and send information to the internet provider and local police depending on the case. don't blame all men on the planet for the actions of that one guy. I don't get why this concept is so hard for those on the left to understand. people are indviduals not groups who share the same mind and org.

we can discuss sexism without being sexist, that is what I am saying. we can say that man a was sexist to woman a without saying all men are ______
I am against sexism on both sides.

so you're saying if someone talks about terror attacks and blames all Muslims and then I say well hey its not all Muslims, then they are ok saying well you are just perpetuating terrorism ?



bleh12345
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22 Jul 2014, 7:26 pm

sly279 wrote:
Geekonychus wrote:
This comic pretty much sums up this whole discussion:
Image



Tarentella. Don't you know that most men (75% according Sly's random guess) are decent people and not at all sexist/harrassers/rapists, etc? Therefore, even discussing male perpetuated sexism and harassment is clearly a misandrist attack on all men. Put your scissors away lady! :lol:



But seriously. Even if only .001% of men are full blown harassers, based on my experience at least 50% of men are the kind of people who's first response to a sexism discussion is to attempt to derail it with a completely irrelevent and off topic "Not all men" or "women can harass too" defense. At the very least they are guilty of perpetuating these issues by refusing to actually discuss and engage them.


as they attack men and say the same thing when the tables are turned I don't see the point.
if a guy says most/women say or do something , she or SA will jump in call it sexist and say not all women .....

so how is men doing the same thing seen as derailing but when they do it its seen a as a needed quest to stop sexism.

I don't like being made to feel like a rapist, sex offender, A*****e, or another bad person just cause theres men who do it.

this is the same as the attacks on Muslims after 911. well the terrorist were Muslims so lets treat all Muslims like they are terrorist.
should we tell all Muslims, Irish, Russians it is their job to stand up to the terrorist who happen to be from their culture to stop. or do we blame those responsible for the crime.

wall mart has a few thefts, not enough to install cameras or hire extra security but they separate the store into sections, wall them off, tell employees to watch customers closely. they treat each customer as a thief, this makes shopping there really uncomfortable.

punish the guy who sends dick pictures. ban him from the site, block his ip and send information to the internet provider and local police depending on the case. don't blame all men on the planet for the actions of that one guy. I don't get why this concept is so hard for those on the left to understand. people are indviduals not groups who share the same mind and org.

we can discuss sexism without being sexist, that is what I am saying. we can say that man a was sexist to woman a without saying all men are ______
I am against sexism on both sides.

so you're saying if someone talks about terror attacks and blames all Muslims and then I say well hey its not all Muslims, then they are ok saying well you are just perpetuating terrorism ?


The difference is no one is saying all men do these things and in your example some one is saying "all Muslims". If someone said "some Muslims do this and we should discuss why and how to prevent it" and someone replied "Yeah, but not all Muslims do it", I would indeed say they are enabling certain irrational religious beliefs. That person would also just be saying the obvious. Anyone who said "All Muslims are terrorist" are most likely racist and only consider middle eastern people Muslim. People attempting to have a rational discussion won't lie and say "all men", and I haven't really seen anyone attempt it here yet.



starvingartist
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22 Jul 2014, 8:04 pm

bleh12345 wrote:
The difference is no one is saying all men do these things and in your example some one is saying "all Muslims". If someone said "some Muslims do this and we should discuss why and how to prevent it" and someone replied "Yeah, but not all Muslims do it", I would indeed say they are enabling certain irrational religious beliefs. That person would also just be saying the obvious. Anyone who said "All Muslims are terrorist" are most likely racist and only consider middle eastern people Muslim. People attempting to have a rational discussion won't lie and say "all men", and I haven't really seen anyone attempt it here yet.


^^this. no one is calling you a rapist or sex offender, or "making you" feel like one, and no one is saying all men are rapists or sex offenders. so yeah sly, you're derailing.



tarantella64
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22 Jul 2014, 11:01 pm

Jono wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
I walk into a store and a security guard stops me, tells me women have to wear a monitor inside the store.
I get all pissed off, sexism etc.
Guard explains that they have this problem with shoplifting and it's overwhelmingly women, in fact quite a large proportion of women are shoplifting.
I say, Wtf, are you serious?
He says, Yes ma'm, stats here.
I look at stats.
And my attitude changes.
I look at stats source and realize this is very likely real.
My attitude changes the rest of the way.
I decline to shop with a monitor, but leave shaken, convinced that something very f****d-up is happening with women, and that I need to find out what it is and see if this is something I need to lend a hand in correcting.

Notice how this doesn't end in my accusing the guard of calling me a shoplifter. (He hasn't.)
Nor does it end in my demanding he recognize that I'm not a shoplifter. (I don't actually care what he thinks.)
Notice also how this doesn't end in my calling him sexist.
Notice how it doesn't involve my hammering him with stats about men's shoplifting. Because it doesn't matter. What matters is that suddenly, some freaky large proportion of women are shoplifting, and this means there's a real problem amongst women.


Actually, that still sounds sexist and unfair to me, regardless of what the stats show. Even if most shoplifters turned out to be women, then it would still be profoundly unfair or even to put monitors on all women who enter the shop simply for being women because the numbers would still not mean that all women or even the majority of women are shoplifters.

This reminds me of when businessman Mirko Fischer sued British Airways for forcing him to change seats due to a sex discrimination policy that the airline had with seating adult male passengers with unaccompanied children. Apparently, the resigning for this policy was the same yours above, with respect to statistics that show that peadophiles are more likely to be male:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy

With regards to the policy on POF site, they could easily have flag mods who can take a look at a person's account and look at the photos if there are any complaints, or they can have a flagging system where users can flag messages sent them if they have a problem with them and then that would signal the mods to review them. It doesn't mean that all messages with pictures in them have to be reviewed, only the ones that are reported and it's really no different from moderating posts in an internet forum. The site owners just have to appoint enough people to do the moderating and they do that on OKCupid, I think.


(shrug) who do you think appoints and oversees the mods? It's serious work, managing people. Even worse managing an army of volunteers. You have to hire people to do that kind of thing. Do you really think it's reasonable that a site should have to hire someone, salary/benefits and the whole thing, just for screening dick pics? I don't -- but the alternative, if you're going to be non-sexist, is to ban all private photos from all people. Problem: you kill the site that way. So then the question is: Would you, men, rather that the site died, or that we simply said, "Forget it, no pix from men"? I guess you could also ask if people would be willing to pay for the service in order to keep the dick-pic-screening service running, but my guess is the answer would be no to that, too.

When you consider that there's also a practical workaround here (like sending pictures through any of 4 jillion other services), it looks even less like something to get riled about.

Personally, I don't mind when I'm caught up in a demographic net; I know it's not about me, and so long as I'm not actually being accused of doing something I haven't, or it stops me from doing something central to ordinary life (working in field of my choice, raising kid, etc.) I'm fine. I also wouldn't mind being screened by a competent, professional security staff at airports and borders, because although I know perfectly well that I'm not a terrorist, s**t does happen.

The reality is that when it comes to crimes, offensive behaviors, etc., there isn't time to deal with everyone lovingly and as a distinct human being. If I could wave a wand and make that happen someplace, I'd make it happen first in courtrooms. All kinds. Criminal, family, you name it. The backlogs are insane, and the courts function as machines, because they have to. And anyone who doesn't recognize that they're stuck in a machine -- meaning disproportionately poor and poorly-educated people -- is in for a world of hurt.



sly279
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22 Jul 2014, 11:45 pm

starvingartist wrote:
bleh12345 wrote:
The difference is no one is saying all men do these things and in your example some one is saying "all Muslims". If someone said "some Muslims do this and we should discuss why and how to prevent it" and someone replied "Yeah, but not all Muslims do it", I would indeed say they are enabling certain irrational religious beliefs. That person would also just be saying the obvious. Anyone who said "All Muslims are terrorist" are most likely racist and only consider middle eastern people Muslim. People attempting to have a rational discussion won't lie and say "all men", and I haven't really seen anyone attempt it here yet.


^^this. no one is calling you a rapist or sex offender, or "making you" feel like one, and no one is saying all men are rapists or sex offenders. so yeah sly, you're derailing.


if I can't say alot of women ......, then you two shouldn't be albe to say alot of men....

I fail to see how one is ok and the other is bad. except for a idea that things said about women is sexist but women can say all they want about men.

change all to most Muslims. is it ok now?

just as I didn't say that you want a guy to have a job, car, house, and be attractive to date him. I said a lot of women want those. I was slammed as that sentence coming off sexist and hurtful.

so no you don't say me personally just men in general are those things. :roll:

fact is when a person says most men rape women, it makes men feel like they are part of the most. since most would be a over 50% of the population of males, it is likely then that I would be part of the that. you two seem to view sexism one sided.

you want to ban what you call sexism based on how it hurts women's feelings but hurting men's feelings is ok.

saying alot or most men do something hurts mine and others feelings how is it ok?



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22 Jul 2014, 11:56 pm

sly279 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
bleh12345 wrote:
The difference is no one is saying all men do these things and in your example some one is saying "all Muslims". If someone said "some Muslims do this and we should discuss why and how to prevent it" and someone replied "Yeah, but not all Muslims do it", I would indeed say they are enabling certain irrational religious beliefs. That person would also just be saying the obvious. Anyone who said "All Muslims are terrorist" are most likely racist and only consider middle eastern people Muslim. People attempting to have a rational discussion won't lie and say "all men", and I haven't really seen anyone attempt it here yet.


^^this. no one is calling you a rapist or sex offender, or "making you" feel like one, and no one is saying all men are rapists or sex offenders. so yeah sly, you're derailing.


if I can't say alot of women ......, then you two shouldn't be albe to say alot of men....

I fail to see how one is ok and the other is bad. except for a idea that things said about women is sexist but women can say all they want about men.

change all to most Muslims. is it ok now?

just as I didn't say that you want a guy to have a job, car, house, and be attractive to date him. I said a lot of women want those. I was slammed as that sentence coming off sexist and hurtful.

so no you don't say me personally just men in general are those things. :roll:

fact is when a person says most men rape women, it makes men feel like they are part of the most. since most would be a over 50% of the population of males, it is likely then that I would be part of the that. you two seem to view sexism one sided.

you want to ban what you call sexism based on how it hurts women's feelings but hurting men's feelings is ok.

saying alot or most men do something hurts mine and others feelings how is it ok?


OMG.

no one here is saying most men are sex offenders or that "men in general" are sex offenders, ffs. seriously, NO ONE has said that.



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23 Jul 2014, 12:21 am

not in this thread but in others , its the general attitude that has been building me up to a point where I couldn't hold it in anymore.

tarantella64 wrote:
Actually, strangeG, that's basically a guy's thing to do on dating sites, the junk shot. Women aren't so into it.

I don't post photos of myself on dating sites, but if some vast number of women on a private dating site were sending crotch shots and the site admin said, "OK! Enough, no more private-photo sending from women" I'd totally understand it. My guess is the only reason they didn't make it equal-opportunity is that they'd lose huge numbers of men if the men couldn't get the women to send pix.
.....


meaning that a vast number of men do it which is why men are banned from sending private photos, thus generalizing alot of men send penis shots.

tarantella64 wrote:
......

A lot of men have this notion that what women really want is a big dick, because that's what they're preoccupied with amongst themselves, who's got the biggest dick. They're pretty sure theirs is killer. Hence shot. Sometimes it's done aggressively to intimidate or be rude to women, too.



I do not want to nor have the time and emotions to dig up every time either of you said alot or most men.

I just would like if you would stop as it is hurtful.

could have said


tarantella64 wrote:
......

*some* of men have this notion that what women really want is a big dick, because that's what they're preoccupied with amongst themselves, who's got the biggest dick. They're pretty sure theirs is killer. Hence shot. Sometimes it's done aggressively to intimidate or be rude to women, too.


If i must learn to phrase my post better then it is only fair women should too.,



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23 Jul 2014, 12:53 am

A lot: some large number.
Most: >50%.

I think it was Eureka who said she was an OKC mod, where the ratio of men sending offensive pix v. women doing same was 25:1. pof, like OKC, is a large site. 55 million users. So even if only 1 percent of people send nasty pix, and I bet that's low, that's 550,000 people sending their junk. A lot of people. If Eureka's stats hold for pof, then only 4% of those people are women: about 20K. That still leaves *over half a million men sending women photos of their penises*.

That's a lotta sausage.



tarantella64
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23 Jul 2014, 1:01 am

Fwiw: POF CEO explains why the OP can't send photos.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth ... 81808.html

...and if you want to speak to him directly about it, you can leave a comment on his blog.

http://plentyoffish.wordpress.com



sly279
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23 Jul 2014, 1:16 am

tarantella64 wrote:
A lot: some large number.
Most: >50%.

I think it was Eureka who said she was an OKC mod, where the ratio of men sending offensive pix v. women doing same was 25:1. pof, like OKC, is a large site. 55 million users. So even if only 1 percent of people send nasty pix, and I bet that's low, that's 550,000 people sending their junk. A lot of people. If Eureka's stats hold for pof, then only 4% of those people are women: about 20K. That still leaves *over half a million men sending women photos of their penises*.

That's a lotta sausage.


which was a guess. I am also a okc mod anyone who is on okc fover over a year is one. I said my experience didn't match that.

most of the complaints I saw were goolge images used to make fake accounts. the rest were close up of tattoos, close up of boobs, pictures of pets/environments. and the one or two guys in tight underwear or shirtless. one and only one penis picture.

well if my evidence based on my area and what I've seen from others then there are also probably atleast the same amount of women who say a guy has to have a job, car, house before they can consider messaging them.

the problem is there is no reall way to prove these numbers.

if guy A gets complained about by 10 women then he is 10 of the 25:1 but it seems like alot cause he did it 10 times, now consider the guy probably spams the picture to 100 women as the genral advice from okc and others is try to reach as many women as possible to improve your odds of getting a date. I can only imagine a guy sending penis picturs wanting sex would most likely follow that idea. he probably spams his pic to as many women as he can manage.

same with the guy who sends out 100 want to have sex messages each day. now that already seems like a lot, now lets say 100 out of 10,000 guys do the same thing we now have we now have 10,000 women who got sent a penis picture. to them it seems like 10,000 guys are sending pictures but it's really only 100. they complain about it which is good. now they see others complaining so it most certianlly proves that theres 10k guys doing it right. but odds are and Ive noticed it. they don't compare the guys doing it, just that guys do it to them.

in summary me and my 10 friends could complain about Rachel but we don't say her name, we just complain about how this girl wronged us. since we don't know its the same girl it seems like there are 10 women who wrong guys.



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23 Jul 2014, 1:25 am

tarantella64 wrote:
Fwiw: POF CEO explains why the OP can't send photos.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth ... 81808.html
...and if you want to speak to him directly about it, you can leave a comment on his blog.
http://plentyoffish.wordpress.com


I had two photos, both of which I was fully clothed in. She was my age, and I was looking for a serious relationship . I've given up for now. I guess I must have been at fault though because apparently every single woman in the world is kind, considerate, sane, and only interested in long term relationships lol. I really don't wanna get dragged back into this. It doesn't seem like you all are gonna see the other side's viewpoint, and its just gonna drag on and on...



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23 Jul 2014, 1:28 am

sly279 wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
A lot: some large number.
Most: >50%.

I think it was Eureka who said she was an OKC mod, where the ratio of men sending offensive pix v. women doing same was 25:1. pof, like OKC, is a large site. 55 million users. So even if only 1 percent of people send nasty pix, and I bet that's low, that's 550,000 people sending their junk. A lot of people. If Eureka's stats hold for pof, then only 4% of those people are women: about 20K. That still leaves *over half a million men sending women photos of their penises*.

That's a lotta sausage.


which was a guess. I am also a okc mod anyone who is on okc fover over a year is one. I said my experience didn't match that.

most of the complaints I saw were goolge images used to make fake accounts. the rest were close up of tattoos, close up of boobs, pictures of pets/environments. and the one or two guys in tight underwear or shirtless. one and only one penis picture.

well if my evidence based on my area and what I've seen from others then there are also probably atleast the same amount of women who say a guy has to have a job, car, house before they can consider messaging them.

the problem is there is no reall way to prove these numbers.

if guy A gets complained about by 10 women then he is 10 of the 25:1 but it seems like alot cause he did it 10 times, now consider the guy probably spams the picture to 100 women as the genral advice from okc and others is try to reach as many women as possible to improve your odds of getting a date. I can only imagine a guy sending penis picturs wanting sex would most likely follow that idea. he probably spams his pic to as many women as he can manage.

same with the guy who sends out 100 want to have sex messages each day. now that already seems like a lot, now lets say 100 out of 10,000 guys do the same thing we now have we now have 10,000 women who got sent a penis picture. to them it seems like 10,000 guys are sending pictures but it's really only 100. they complain about it which is good. now they see others complaining so it most certianlly proves that theres 10k guys doing it right. but odds are and Ive noticed it. they don't compare the guys doing it, just that guys do it to them.

in summary me and my 10 friends could complain about Rachel but we don't say her name, we just complain about how this girl wronged us. since we don't know its the same girl it seems like there are 10 women who wrong guys.


and your solution is to discourage women from talking about their own experiences with harassment and sexual assault because it makes you feel bad even though it has nothing to do with you, and to call those women who do talk about their own experiences that have nothing to do with you sexist, and insist they said things to you to hurt your feelings that they never said. brilliant. do you see how you're not helping, and being irrational?



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23 Jul 2014, 1:28 am

djw2398 wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Fwiw: POF CEO explains why the OP can't send photos.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth ... 81808.html
...and if you want to speak to him directly about it, you can leave a comment on his blog.
http://plentyoffish.wordpress.com


I had two photos, both of which I was fully clothed in. She was my age, and I was looking for a serious relationship . I've given up for now. I guess I must have been at fault though because apparently every single woman in the world is kind, considerate, sane, and only interested in long term relationships lol. I really don't wanna get dragged back into this. It doesn't seem like you all are gonna see the other side's viewpoint, and its just gonna drag on and on...


Right, it doesn't matter what you were wearing, because the policy doesn't look at you specifically. You should get in touch with the CEO, he seems quite open to conversation.