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OrangeCowboy
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15 Aug 2014, 6:16 pm

The specific thing that is different between the 80s and now is that like you said, guys and girls hung out in the 80s. Nowdays, hangouts are exclusively male or female. My male friends' video game get-togethers or eating outs are always exclusively male and any females we invite refuse to come. Conversely, judging by my female friends' facebook photos, their hangouts are exclusively female. I've rarely experience a mixed-gender hangout directly or heard of one secondhand. The question is, why are mixed-gendered hangouts an endangered species? Is it because my female friends incorrectly believe I'm trying to date them even though I invite my male friends to a potential get-together to prove it isn't a date?



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15 Aug 2014, 6:25 pm

OrangeCowboy wrote:
The specific thing that is different between the 80s and now is that like you said, guys and girls hung out in the 80s. Nowdays, hangouts are exclusively male or female. My male friends' video game get-togethers or eating outs are always exclusively male and any females we invite refuse to come. Conversely, judging by my female friends' facebook photos, their hangouts are exclusively female. I've rarely experience a mixed-gender hangout directly or heard of one secondhand. The question is, why are mixed-gendered hangouts an endangered species? Is it because my female friends incorrectly believe I'm trying to date them even though I invite my male friends to a potential get-together to prove it isn't a date?


back when i was still relatively social (8-10 years or so, so not the 80s) i hung out with mixed groups all the time--i had a couple of friends who were a couple (a guy and a girl) that i knew from highschool/college, and they would have people over to their apartment all the time for get-togethers that were always with mixed company. this is not an unheard of thing--maybe the people you hang out with are stuck in limiting gender roles that cause them to only participate in activities that are acceptably "masculine" or "feminine", but not everyone everywhere is like that. some of us are just people, who have various different likes and interests, and like to hang out with people with similar likes/interests. for example, at the get-togethers i mentioned earlier, often we would play a game (like guitar hero or some such) and then maybe some poker, or we would watch movies or the daily show, etc, or just hang out and chat and laugh. not everyone is so segregated by gender as the people you know seem to be. maybe try meeting new friends who aren't so concerned about only doing "male" or "female" activities (whatever THOSE are).



OrangeCowboy
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15 Aug 2014, 8:10 pm

When I ask my female friends if they'd like to come with me and my male friends to the local burger joint, why do I always get a no despite how nice they seem to me? Why do they refuse to hang out with me? Are burgers that unfeminine?



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15 Aug 2014, 8:44 pm

Maybe things are generally different where I live, but my friendship experience isn't like how you have described. I have a few friends who I catch up with one-on-one, and a group of friends who all get together and usually play boardgames. The one-on-one friends are both males and females, people I may or may not have been romantically involved with in the past, and same with the group. There's plenty of "unrequited love" history in our gaming group, but no "friendzone". The whole group is a friend zone.

There are people in the group who have been romantically involved with each other and are no longer, there are people who have recently started dating, there are people I have rejected romantically and people who have rejected me. Still no "friendzone" that is conceptually separate from the actual group of friends. We are just friends. Hanging out. If any particular person in the group thinks they have been "friendzoned", that is in their head and will only have a negative effect on them, so they may as well give up the idea.

If you are wondering how this mixed-gender group came about...I created it, by bringing together people who wanted to play boardgames. So there was a hobby that was shared by males and females alike, and we got together to enjoy it. So maybe yes, burgers are too unfeminine? You could be onto something.



OrangeCowboy
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15 Aug 2014, 9:26 pm

I guess I've learned something, if you want to hang out with a girl, pick a restaurant that doesn't serve burgers. That's the moral of the day and the reason I've had a hard time hanging out with girls.



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16 Aug 2014, 12:55 am

Janissy wrote:
sly279 wrote:
its just the new term for unequated love.


I first thought it was just the new term for unrequited love. But the more I hear about it, the less that seems so. It's unrequited, sure. That I agree with. But what seems new is this idea that there is a "zone" that a person can move in or out of depending on their actions.

Back in my time (and earlier, according to my Mom) unrequited love was a common and unavoidable side effect of male and female socialising together. You wanted somebody. They didn't want you. Or vice versa. End of story. But now there seems to be this idea that if you don't do things just right, you will get "friendzoned" which is somewhat different than being rejected because they aren't attracted. It gets framed as a game where you get placed inside or outside a zone depending on how well you have mastered a set of rules. There is the idea that a certain person would be dating you if only you had "played" differently. With unrequited love, they simply rejected you because they aren't interested. And you pined until you didn't. But there was no idea that you didn't follow a set of rules properly.

Maybe it's the influence of video games. In my day, they were a novelty- found in an arcade and played for quarters or found in very primitive form (compared to now) in somebody's living room attached to the TV. But they weren't a cultural force. So the idea of points and levels and finally getting the prize just didn't exist in it's modern form. There were games. But basketball (outside) and Monopoly (inside)- or any of the other field or board games- just didn't frame things that way.


right, it's just a byproduct of PUA culture, where there's this stupid idea that you're just supposed to go around scoring as much and as hard as possible, and it's essentially a human video game fuelled by rage and entitlement. That's why the men are supposed to get all pissed off if the girl "puts them" in this mythical friendzone, and engage cleverness and rules mania to "get out of the friendzone". An unfortunate number of young men believe this is a real thing and wind up behaving aggressively and ridiculously, and sometimes abusively, to women as a result. So the young women withdraw because they just want none of this nonsense and it's better to avoid the young man altogether.



tarantella64
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16 Aug 2014, 12:59 am

OrangeCowboy wrote:
When I ask my female friends if they'd like to come with me and my male friends to the local burger joint, why do I always get a no despite how nice they seem to me? Why do they refuse to hang out with me? Are burgers that unfeminine?


You want one or two girls to go with a gang of boys, esp. if it includes boys they don't really know, to a meat joint? Not gonna happen unless they're already dating you. It's an invitation to harassment and gossip.

Yes, boy/girl groups hang out, usually in the context of activities like theatre, games, community event planning, etc.



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16 Aug 2014, 2:31 am

Janissy wrote:
sly279 wrote:
its just the new term for unequated love.


I first thought it was just the new term for unrequited love. But the more I hear about it, the less that seems so. It's unrequited, sure. That I agree with. But what seems new is this idea that there is a "zone" that a person can move in or out of depending on their actions.

Back in my time (and earlier, according to my Mom) unrequited love was a common and unavoidable side effect of male and female socialising together. You wanted somebody. They didn't want you. Or vice versa. End of story. But now there seems to be this idea that if you don't do things just right, you will get "friendzoned" which is somewhat different than being rejected because they aren't attracted. It gets framed as a game where you get placed inside or outside a zone depending on how well you have mastered a set of rules. There is the idea that a certain person would be dating you if only you had "played" differently. With unrequited love, they simply rejected you because they aren't interested. And you pined until you didn't. But there was no idea that you didn't follow a set of rules properly.

Maybe it's the influence of video games. In my day, they were a novelty- found in an arcade and played for quarters or found in very primitive form (compared to now) in somebody's living room attached to the TV. But they weren't a cultural force. So the idea of points and levels and finally getting the prize just didn't exist in it's modern form. There were games. But basketball (outside) and Monopoly (inside)- or any of the other field or board games- just didn't frame things that way.


is not getting out of the friendzone. or if there is its very rare it seems. once someone doesnt see you as attractive and puts you in their mind as a friend that is where you stay.

the problem I see is I care for people and it seems better to be apart of thier life then not apart of it. but the love I have for them and the no love they have for me eats at me. I don't get how people can say there isn't a friendzone. I see it a zone for a non romatnic other sex friend. they aren't in the romanticzone, they aren't in the not friends zone. so where are they if no friend zone.

most people who say it doesn't exist are women who have never been in it. they can general get the men/women they like so never experince loving someone deeply only to be seen as just friends. its not just a men and pua thing. I have heard it equally from women who end up in the friendzone of a guy they love.

also being friends with someone and hoping they one day show the love back isn't keeping score or playing a game. is it false hope and wast of time, sure but it doesn't have to mean its some kind of mean vindictive act.

don't many of the women here suggest guys friend women with the hopes of it leading to a relationship with the whole "friends first" idea. are not the people involved hoping the friendship turns into a relationship.



OrangeCowboy
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16 Aug 2014, 2:05 pm

Actually my proposed hang out would have included only 5 people. All of us know each other. I don't know why they said no. One of them even used the "I have to study" excuse, ... on Friday night (when nobody studies).



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16 Aug 2014, 2:52 pm

OrangeCowboy wrote:
When I ask my female friends if they'd like to come with me and my male friends to the local burger joint, why do I always get a no despite how nice they seem to me? Why do they refuse to hang out with me? Are burgers that unfeminine?


Because #NotAllMen but #YesAllWomen.

Not all men would ask two guys and two girls to a burger joint because they're horny and hope one of the girls will go home with him for sex that night, but pretty much all women are aware that this is the primary motive of some men.

Not all men would slip a date rape drug into a woman's drink and then take them home and have not-really-consensual sex with her, but yes all women know that this happens, so we guard our beverages at bars and restaurants.

Not all men would get sprung and make things super awkward whenever a woman hugs him, but yes all women want to avoid men who get awkward boners.

Not all men see women as nothing but walking sex toys who owe them affection, attraction and willingness for whatever kinky freak might go through their heads. But yes, all women have been objectified, harassed, or at least told that if they aren't super careful they could get raped.

Not all men would tell a woman who was raped that she must have asked for it, because what was she wearing, why was she alone, did she have too much to drink or didn't she know better than to be in that part of town at that time of day. But yes, all women know that if they are raped, they will be blamed in some way for bringing it upon themselves.

Not all men believe that they are entitled to sex because they have a sex drive and women are just so complicated that they can't figure out how to get one in bed. But yes, all women get tired of dealing with that small percentage of men who won't take no for an answer.

Not all men treat women as games where if you push the right buttons you get rewarded with sex. But yes, all women are wary of this game because we don't like to be treated like games, objects and prizes.

Tarantella64 is right; pay attention to what s/he is saying. yellowtamarin is also making a lot of sense. I don't know where you live, but if it is as gender-segregated as you say, that's probably part of the problem. All the men you hang out with are either getting their desires met in ways you don't know about, or they are likely as frustrated as you seem to be. And likely all the women are aware that all the men around them are sexually frustrated, and they don't want to put themselves in the awkward situation of having to either acquiesce to the sexual advances, or risk being harassed, ridiculed, called vile names and potentially assaulted.

I blame Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. It's absolutely ridiculous to put sex at the same level of need as food, water and oxygen. People asphyxiate; they die of dehydration and starvation. Every day, in fact. Nobody ever died of blue balls.

Maybe, OrangeCowboy, it isn't about sex drive that makes you so frustrated; maybe you do just want friends who are women to hang out with. Maybe you live in a place where the culture makes that difficult or nearly impossible. Maybe it's because it's ultra-conservative and the powers that be frown upon male/female socializing outside of one-on-one dating. Maybe it's because it's so liberal that the pick-up-artist culture of women as prizes in a game is all encompassing, and all the women are primed to say "no thanks" to any man who so much as looks at them. But you sound very frustrated, indeed, and it just might be that all the women you're talking to and about are picking up on that. It's honestly pretty creepy. Most women can tell a friend-hug from a horny groper-hug. Maybe if you're on the spectrum, you can't?

Not all men turn every hug into a sexual thrill that the woman he's hugging didn't intend and doesn't want. But yes, all women want to avoid sending a message that they are sexually available to all men but the one(s) they are sexually attracted to.

So if you're desperate for a girlfriend, stop asking women to hang out with you and your guy friends. If you just want friends, you wouldn't be making such a big issue of how the women respond to your friendly invitations. And please, give the lady who said she wanted to study on Friday night the benefit of the doubt. Some people actually do study on Friday night. Some of us have online classes and the exams are on Saturdays; some of us don't like to procrastinate through the weekend and then cram in the wee hours of Monday morning; and some of us have huge classwork loads and prefer to pace ourselves so that the study time evens out. Maybe it was a polite "white lie" because she wanted to decline without hurting your feelings. But maybe, just maybe, she really did go home and study even though it was Friday night. Maybe even she knew that all the other people would be out dating and socializing, and she could be alone to study in a quiet place without distraction! That would so work for me! Best time to study is when everybody else is off at some party or movie or pizza joint or bar or ball game. Nice and quiet and alone with no distractions.

Just remember, Yes All Women have been treated like the only thing that matters to some man is whether or not he "scores" with her. Not all men use women this way. But yes, all women either fear being used, or have been used, or have been used and are afraid it will happen again.


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OrangeCowboy
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16 Aug 2014, 9:43 pm

Is it normal to only hang out with a girl once every four years? I think I have a right to feel hurt that my female friends NEVER want to hang out with me. I am okay with them not being my girlfriend. I just feel hurt that they'd rather hang out with a piece of crap than me. I theorized that they only hang out with boyfriends, but maybe I'm wrong.



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18 Aug 2014, 9:19 am

There are other fish in the sea, my friend.



tarantella64
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18 Aug 2014, 11:42 am

LyraLuthTinu: beautifully put.



OrangeCowboy
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18 Aug 2014, 5:36 pm

Okay, so I've learned is that it's still possible to hang out with a girl if I'm just her friend (unless she has a boyfriend, I assume). The fact that none of the girls in college want to hang out with me is because they personally don't want to hang out with me. Other girls might or might not be willing to do so. I still wish I knew what's with my luck? The odds of every female friend I've made in college (except one on one very lucky occasion) not wanting to hang out with me seem kind of low. I guess I have to appreciate the one time it did happen (at the very end of my undergraduate career).



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19 Aug 2014, 7:48 pm

There isn't a "friend zone", so much as a "never going to be attracted to you zone." You can be friends with a women for a long time and wind up with them. Maybe you couldn't initially get with them, because they were in a relationship, or lived far, or any number of reasons. Now usually a women will know if she'll date you, or have sex with you; pretty quickly. It has very little, if anything to do with you doing something "against the rules". Unless she comes on to you and you're either not aware of it, or don't take advantage of it, then you put yourself in the non-date zone.



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19 Aug 2014, 8:31 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
LyraLuthTinu: beautifully put.


:) Thank you. I thought your posts here beautifully written, too--and well thought out as well.

CommanderKeen, you are so right.

OrangeCowboy: if you are still in college, presumably you're still young? There is time for you to develop social skills; there is plenty of help for ASD people on the web, in the books in the libraries, in social services and the healthcare field--there is hope for you. Just because the co-eds in your school aren't responsive to your invites to hang out, doesn't mean you'll never make friends with any women.

Does your college have any extra-curricular clubs that are not exclusively male or exclusively female? Are the classes segregated by sex? Are you in an all-men school and there's an all-women school in the same town? I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this, given the legislation of things like Title 10 that makes all American schools of higher education gender-egalitarian, at least on paper. Do you live elsewhere than in the States?

Don't despair just because women don't want to hang out with you at restaurants with other men+women. I tell you it's because they're not interested in hookups and they believe that's what any man there will be all about. If it is a co-ed school, try organizing a study group in either your favorite subject, or in the one you struggle with. You'll have a place to start a conversation, a common interest, and a common goal. Even that one girl who told you she wouldn't come hang out on Friday 'cuz she wanted to study might come to a study group.

Good luck--all ASD peeps need help with the making friends thing. That's what makes us Aspie's. ;)


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 141 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 71 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)
Official diagnosis: Austism Spectrum Disorder Level One, without learning disability, without speech/language delay; Requiring Support