Agnostic Looking For A Good Debate On Religion.

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techstepgenr8tion
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28 Aug 2014, 5:54 pm

MJPIndy wrote:
Arg. 1: Belief in the occurrence of a miracle can never be justified by appeal to testimony.

Quote:
(1) If a miracle has occurred, then a law of nature has been suspended.
(2) People are known frequently to have mistaken beliefs and tell lies.
(3) If a miracle has been alleged, then either (a) the miracle has occurred, or (b) the person responsible for the allegation is mistaken or lying.
(4) It follows from (1) that (3a) entails the suspension of a law of nature.
(5) It follows from (2) that (3b) does not entail the suspension of a law of nature.
(6) When evaluating conflicting explanations of some phenomenon, rationality requires us to favor the explanation that is least conflicting with our knowledge of nature.
(7) It follows from (3) through (6) that if a miracle has been alleged, rationality requires us to favor the explanation that the person responsible for the allegation is mistaken or lying.

I tend to see arguments in debate really being, like anything, the a priori pool of any given presenter which matches the specific flavor of their life, personality, and experiences. The things they'd consider possible or impossible, the things they'd claim mankind to truly know or only maybe know, etc.. Admittedly it's REALLY tough out there to deal with all the data we have in front of us. So many given fields of knowledge you could chase the details your entire life and only become an expert in a niche to then pass up everything else. Its partly why I don't like debating people much anymore - a person's ontology is their personal module of religion, whether they claim to be religious or otherwise, and people who seek to really evaluate the quality of their bubble are rare enough that its far better just to run into someone like that, realize you jive, and PM back and forth than start a thread on an internet forum and try to have it out.

Just thinking of how many times in my life I felt like I really knew pretty much all of the basic 'stuff' and flavors of stuff important to figure out what was really going on with humanity on this planet and how many times and ways I criss-crossed from theism to atheism and back I realize just how convincing anyone's pool of beliefs can be regardless of what they have. Since debates are won by passion but passion doesn't necessarily denote that the person with the most passion has the most truth - it kinda turns the thing into drudgery.

MJPIndy wrote:
Arg. 2: If God exists, then there is no rational basis for altering our behavior or attitudes in response to this fact.

Quote:
(1) By definition, God is both truly good - hence his willingness to minimize the existence of what is truly evil - and able to minimize the existence of what is truly evil; he also has a privileged, undistorted perspective on reality, with access to truths that defy human comprehension.
(2) Cancer kills some children.
(3) It follows from (1) and (2) that if God exists, then from his perspective, the world would be no better (or even less-than-ideal) if cancer killed fewer children.
(4) From our natural perspective, child cancer is terrible; it makes the world considerably worse than it would be if cancer killed no or fewer children.
(5) It follows from (3) and (4) that if God exists, then our natural perspective on child cancer is actually false.
(6) It follows from (5) that we cannot know whether any of our value-judgments are actually true or false - and not merely in agreement with our natural perspective.
(7) It follows from (6) that we cannot possibly know what is favored or disfavored by a truly good God; we cannot know how, if at all, it is possible for us to earn his favor and avoid his disfavor.

I think the one thing certain of us have no matter what is the desire to make the most of this life possible, to get it as 'right' as we can in reference for what our own internal fiber calls out for, and for those whose lives are filled with seeking self improvement, especially self-improvement for the sake of both them and the people around them, grabbing those next few feet of possibility will always be the goal because it's what makes some people tick. In this case ontological and spiritual beliefs would have a lot to do with how they categorized whether they'd spend more time at the gym, in a a lab, or in meditation among so many other things. If they believe there's no God but but believe humanity needs a lot of love and nourishment - they'd turn themselves more fully outward. If they believe that God is the point we're all going back to then they'd do their best to make big steps in that direction as well.



techstepgenr8tion
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28 Aug 2014, 6:04 pm

Narrator wrote:
A god who could create a universe would be beyond comprehension. Just try writing a story about a god that is beyond comprehension - it can't be done. So we anthropomorphize 'it,' and oddly that is supposed to make it more credible.

This is also how it confuses me when people could suggest that an infinite God could create the world and physical universe as we know it out of some kind of 'not God' material to create a good vs. evil duality beyond Its full culpability in all sides. When one goes on to even suggest that this 'not God' matter came into being by God speaking it into existence alarm bells start going off that much more.



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28 Aug 2014, 9:15 pm

JaryT wrote:
As the title says, please share your views on religion(s) with me.


Religion is dogma. Religion is suspicious of individual growth. Religion is power. Power corrupts.

Religion demand joining a group and I am repulsed by that idea.

I'm agin' it.

But my brain loves and responds to stories and I love many of the stories from all of the religions, mythologies, memoirs, auto-biographies, and thoughtful works of fiction. I love the idea of God creating people, man and woman, in God's image. I think Christ was very radical and wonderful. I don't care if it is actual historical fact or not, any more than I care if Atticus Finch (and his daughter Scout), Sherlock Holmes, or Pipi Longstockings are fact or fiction. I still learn from all of them. Love all of them. They all feed me.

Religion is all about creating God in man's image. So I created God in this woman's image. My God provides a safe shelter when the world is too intense or feels too evil. My God is the person I aspire to be. My God provides me peace. My God helps me to be strong and persevere. My God does not want me to over think it or be too serious about it. That would be soul -sucking. My God wants me to feel the connectedness of all life. To sense beauty. To enjoy and love. Seek wisdom through knowedge as well as between the cracks of knowledge. My God is as valid as Muslim's Christian's Hindu's, or anyone else's god.

I am not sure if you believe the same as all agnostics (which would make it a religion in its own right) or if you have your own beliefs. How can we have a debate when you have not thrown your argument down, Jary?


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aghogday
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29 Aug 2014, 11:24 am

Awiddershinlife wrote:
JaryT wrote:
As the title says, please share your views on religion(s) with me.


Religion is dogma. Religion is suspicious of individual growth. Religion is power. Power corrupts.

Religion demand joining a group and I am repulsed by that idea.

I'm agin' it.

But my brain loves and responds to stories and I love many of the stories from all of the religions, mythologies, memoirs, auto-biographies, and thoughtful works of fiction. I love the idea of God creating people, man and woman, in God's image. I think Christ was very radical and wonderful. I don't care if it is actual historical fact or not, any more than I care if Atticus Finch (and his daughter Scout), Sherlock Holmes, or Pipi Longstockings are fact or fiction. I still learn from all of them. Love all of them. They all feed me.

Religion is all about creating God in man's image. So I created God in this woman's image. My God provides a safe shelter when the world is too intense or feels too evil. My God is the person I aspire to be. My God provides me peace. My God helps me to be strong and persevere. My God does not want me to over think it or be too serious about it. That would be soul -sucking. My God wants me to feel the connectedness of all life. To sense beauty. To enjoy and love. Seek wisdom through knowedge as well as between the cracks of knowledge. My God is as valid as Muslim's Christian's Hindu's, or anyone else's god.

I am not sure if you believe the same as all agnostics (which would make it a religion in its own right) or if you have your own beliefs. How can we have a debate when you have not thrown your argument down, Jary?


I like your way of looking at GOD through the 'woman's' eyes.

For thousands of years GOD is literally created in a 'male's' image.

And truly more women than you are finally creating GOD in 'women's' image.

When the two balance and become one in the world, perhaps there will be balance AND peace.

In my opinion, it is Patriarchy that is responsible for most of the world's conflicts.

Too much Yang and not enough Yin can cause some serious suffering, and yes, VICE VERSA, as well. :)

But whether anyone wants to admit IT or not; we all create GOD in our own image; whether it is personal or cultural; by or 'buy' design.

And no, that's not surprising, as 'those' are the 'eyes' we are blessed with, to create GOD with, as truly a fractal of the whole, as science now shows.

GOD is Science and GOD is Art.

Too much of one and not the other, is where many problems start and end.

I know all too well from personal experience; GOD does not exist fully without Art, in one's own life, no matter what culture and or religion says.

And yes, I find GOD everywhere; very often in the Movie Theater and Youtube videos too. :)

It's just a matter of finding GOD that FEELS like the ONE for one.

Unfortunately, some folks don't understand, at core, IT, yes IT, as metaphor for GOD, TRULY IS, ALL up to US. :)

You are part of a vocal minority; but never the less, I see your words as TRUE; as you create GOD that is right for you.

I'm sure that GOD doesn't mind. :)

In only my opinion, of course; I think GOD is smiling on you, and probably winking too. ;)


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Last edited by aghogday on 29 Aug 2014, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Aug 2014, 12:24 pm

We don't have any evidence that God exists that can't be better explained by something else.

Therefore, believing in God is not sensible.



TallyMan
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29 Aug 2014, 1:12 pm

So much for JaryT (the OP) wanting a good debate on religion; he's never come back; he's done a post and run.


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