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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Sep 2014, 2:24 am

Why is it some people insist there is no real evidence CO2 affects climate?



GGPViper
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24 Sep 2014, 2:50 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Why is it some people insist there is no real evidence CO2 affects climate?

Well, why don't *you* tell us?

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5837009 ... t=#5837009
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5837032 ... t=#5837032
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5841846 ... t=#5841846
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5843212 ... t=#5843212
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5848703 ... t=#5848703

Physician, heal thyself!

The above posts are all made by you in a 20-page thread where you systematically (primarily through the use of red herrings) disregard almost all evidence presented by other posters about the effect of CO2 on climate...



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Sep 2014, 3:06 am

Well, it's just that I have seen these posts around the web and they say there's no evidence CO2 causes climate change. Why would people still believe that?

I don't disregard evidence and I am not a climate change denier. I do not deny we can cause it or other factors can. I have questioned the outcome simply because I have seen a lot of errors.

All I am wondering is why there are people who say there is no evidence CO2 causes climate change...



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24 Sep 2014, 4:33 am

There's not enough space to go into detail, but I'll hit the high points.

Higher CO2 levels (proven) when the earth was COLDER.

Evidence that CO2 levels really have a negligible impact on weather/climate compared to other factors man has no control over.

Proof that the whole global warming/climate change is more about pushing a political agenda on the masses to serve the interest of the few holding power than actually doing a darn thing to "save" the planet.

Proof that ever single proposal to be "greener" (short of sensible recycling of products so we don't pack full the landfills), is a big money suck from developed countries into undeveloped countries AND the end analysis of the environmental impact is that the "green" solutions are worse than simply making existing processes a little more efficient than they currently are.



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24 Sep 2014, 7:21 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Evidence that CO2 levels really have a negligible impact on weather/climate compared to other factors man has no control over.

No such evidence exists.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5836410 ... t=#5836410

May I also reiterate what I previously stated when you previously made the exactly same claim:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5838505 ... t=#5838505

GGPViper wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
91 wrote:
It strikes me as strange that people doubt the reality of Climate Change....

Nobody doubts "climate change." The climate is ALWAYS changing. The debate is over the laughable contention that man plays a significant and controlling factor.

We can't significantly increase or decrease the planet's temperatures. We are insignificant.

It's one thing to not deliberately pollute the environment. It's another to believe that our activity is having a catastrophic effect on the world ecosystem.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5836410 ... t=#5836410

Have you ever considered that it might be wise to actually *read* the responses to your posts?



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24 Sep 2014, 7:30 am

It was "global warming" until the winters started getting colder when it suddenly shifted to "climate change" and the former term was no longer in vogue. Right or wrong, it's part of the current narrative......

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24 Sep 2014, 11:42 am

A very good article on the subject.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2629 ... reversible


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Sep 2014, 12:21 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
There's not enough space to go into detail, but I'll hit the high points.

Higher CO2 levels (proven) when the earth was COLDER.

Evidence that CO2 levels really have a negligible impact on weather/climate compared to other factors man has no control over.

Proof that the whole global warming/climate change is more about pushing a political agenda on the masses to serve the interest of the few holding power than actually doing a darn thing to "save" the planet.

Proof that ever single proposal to be "greener" (short of sensible recycling of products so we don't pack full the landfills), is a big money suck from developed countries into undeveloped countries AND the end analysis of the environmental impact is that the "green" solutions are worse than simply making existing processes a little more efficient than they currently are.


You do have to admit we shouldn't alter the landscape as much as we would like and do...wouldn't you say the way we alter the landscape could cause problems...like clear cutting forests and building large, sprawling mega cities? And what about the Ozone layer although there is evidence it is repairing itself.

And as far as the polar vortex thing goes...when I was a kid, we had the absolute worst ones - several- in fact, year after year. They would start in December and linger into January, busting pipes, washing machines and contributing to all kinds of headaches. They called them cold fronts or Siberian Express. Now there's all this talk of climate change, they must be called Polar Vortex. It was the same thing. Weeks of daily high temps from 5 to 10 degrees F and nights well below 0. It was awful. So you see, that Polar Vortex thingie has actually been less infrequent as of late.
Now they talk about it like it's a new thing due to climate change. So you see, they do make mistakes when they talk about this subject, like, pretending weather extremes didn't exist before. I know for a fact they existed when I was a kid. I was there.



Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 24 Sep 2014, 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Walrus
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24 Sep 2014, 12:25 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Why is it some people insist there is no real evidence CO2 affects climate?

Our society is dependent on oil (and to a lesser extent gas and coal). We give a lot of money to oil companies. The radiative forcing effect of CO2 and the effects of the associated temperature rise mean that we can't rely as much on oil. This is unfortunate for oil companies, who have an incentive to fund dissent. It is also unfortunate for society at large - the cost of living without oil etc. is much higher than with (or else living standards are lower). This makes people willing to accept the dissent ahead of the scientific consensus.



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24 Sep 2014, 12:26 pm

Raptor wrote:
It was "global warming" until the winters started getting colder when it suddenly shifted to "climate change" and the former term was no longer in vogue. Right or wrong, it's part of the current narrative......


Which makes them look deceptive. If global warming is true, then why change the name ? My first thought is that it's like a "snake oil salesman" who changes his pitch when a past buyer complains that the product didn't cure his baldness.

Also, the meterologists on Detroit tv say for Americans this winter it will be even colder than the unprecedented cold of last year, guess they will say that CO2 is causing this cooling ?



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Sep 2014, 12:33 pm

I am not either denying or confirming. I am just saying information and fact before everyone panics and decides to do all these things only to find the drought continues. One way to cool the planet down for sure is to leave all forests and plant life alone and quit clear cutting. Even simple cytoplasmic bacteria can cause enough release of oxygen to cool the earth down. It caused a massive global ice age in the past, just from them. We do need all that nice, refreshing oxygen to breathe.

If the scenario arises there are so many humans on earth that it becomes one big giant mega city there will be trouble then. I think the worst things we do as a species is over populate and significantly alter habitats yet no one talks about that just CO2 gas when to me it seems obvious that lack of oxygenating plants might be worse and the more the population increases, the more concrete jungles and to feed all the people you need plenty of clear space for mono cultures of crops, too, which aren't as efficient as the forests and marshes that grow bacteria at cleansing and healing the atmosphere. The solution could be more oxygen.



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24 Sep 2014, 1:56 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Raptor wrote:
It was "global warming" until the winters started getting colder when it suddenly shifted to "climate change" and the former term was no longer in vogue. Right or wrong, it's part of the current narrative......


Which makes them look deceptive. If global warming is true, then why change the name ? My first thought is that it's like a "snake oil salesman" who changes his pitch when a past buyer complains that the product didn't cure his baldness.

Also, the meterologists on Detroit tv say for Americans this winter it will be even colder than the unprecedented cold of last year, guess they will say that CO2 is causing this cooling ?

The global average temperature is still predicted to rise. However, the picture is more complicated than it simply getting hotter. We'll see stronger hurricanes, for example, because the oceans will be warmer and there will be more evaporation. Also, there may be some localised cooling, particularly in Europe, due to the disruption of halide currents by the melting Arctic ice.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am not either denying or confirming. I am just saying information and fact before everyone panics and decides to do all these things only to find the drought continues. One way to cool the planet down for sure is to leave all forests and plant life alone and quit clear cutting. Even simple cytoplasmic bacteria can cause enough release of oxygen to cool the earth down. It caused a massive global ice age in the past, just from them. We do need all that nice, refreshing oxygen to breathe.

"Cytoplasmic" is not the adjective you are looking for. Perhaps you mean "photosynthetic"?

Whilst that would make the planet cooler than if we didn't do it, it would not allow us to continue to burn fossil fuels with gay abandon. It would be a laudable cause of action, although somewhat unrealistic.

We're also not short on oxygen. We need plants for the products of photosynthesis, not the waste product.

Quote:
If the scenario arises there are so many humans on earth that it becomes one big giant mega city there will be trouble then. I think the worst things we do as a species is over populate and significantly alter habitats yet no one talks about that just CO2 gas when to me it seems obvious that lack of oxygenating plants might be worse and the more the population increases, the more concrete jungles and to feed all the people you need plenty of clear space for mono cultures of crops, too, which aren't as efficient as the forests and marshes that grow bacteria at cleansing and healing the atmosphere. The solution could be more oxygen.

There is considerable conversation about significantly altering habitats and overpopulation. Not only are those issues tightly linked to greenhouse gas emissions, but the people who talk most about climate change are also those talking about habitat loss and overpopulation.

The solution is not "more oxygen". Oxygen doesn't make things cooler. Rather, carbon dioxide makes things warmer; carbon dioxide is "fixed" in photosynthesis, which releases oxygen as a waste product.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Sep 2014, 2:03 pm

Oxygen DOES make things cooler. It is considered a coolant. Having these carbon sinks is very important and at the rate the human population is increasing, how many sinks will be left?



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24 Sep 2014, 2:19 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Raptor wrote:
It was "global warming" until the winters started getting colder when it suddenly shifted to "climate change" and the former term was no longer in vogue. Right or wrong, it's part of the current narrative......

Which makes them look deceptive. If global warming is true, then why change the name ? My first thought is that it's like a "snake oil salesman" who changes his pitch when a past buyer complains that the product didn't cure his baldness.

Oh, for the love of Nod.

First of all. Climate scientists did *not* change the term from "global warming" to "climate change". This nonsense claim has been repeated so often that skepticalscience.com even made a page specifically addressing it:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate ... basic.html

From the above link I present an article from 1955 with the illustrative title: "The Carbon Dioxide Theory of Climatic Change":

Quote:
The most recent calculations of the infra-red flux in the region of the 15 micron CO2 band show that the average surface temperature of the earth increases 3.6 C if the C02 concentration in the atmosphere is doubled and decreases 3.8 C if the CO2 amount is halved, provided that no other factors change which influence the radiation balance. Variations in CO2 amount of this magnitude must have occurred during geological history; the resulting temperature changes were sufficiently large to influence the climate. The CO2 balance is discussed. The CO2 equilibrium between atmosphere and oceans is calculated with and without CaCO3 equilibrium, assuming that the average temperature changes with the CO2 concentration by the amount predicted by the CO2 theory. When the total CO2 is reduced below a critical value, it is found that the climate continuously oscillates between a glacial and an inter-glacial stage with a period of tens of thousands of years; there is no possible stable state for the climate. Simple explanations are provided by the CO2 theory for the increased precipitation at the onset of a glacial period, the time lag of millions of years between periods of mountain building and the ensuing glaciation, and the severe glaciation at the end of the Carboniferous. The extra CO2 released into the atmosphere by industrial processes and other human activities may have caused the temperature rise during the present century. In contrast with other theories of climate, the CO2 theory predicts that this warming trend will continue, at least for several centuries.

Source:
Plass, G. N. (1956). The carbon dioxide theory of climatic change. Tellus, 8(2), 140-154.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 1206.x/pdf

Second of all, the term goes back even further to 1861 (where the greenhouse effect caused by both CO2 and methane was suggested):

Quote:
Now if, as the above experiments indicate, the chief influence be exercised by the aqueous vapour, every variation of this constituent must produce a change of climate. Similar remarks would apply to the carbonic acid diffused through the air; while an almost inappreciable admixture of any of the hydrocarbon vapours would produce great effects on the terrestrial rays and produce corresponding changes of climate.

Source:
Tyndall, J. (1861). XXIII. On the absorption and radiation of heat by gases and vapours, and on the physical connexion of radiation, absorption, and conduction.?The bakerian lecture. The London, Edinburgh, and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science, 22(146), 169-194.
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~vijay/Paper ... l-1861.pdf



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24 Sep 2014, 2:48 pm

The climate is definitely getting more and more cooler. There have even been reports of penguins freezing to death.



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24 Sep 2014, 3:58 pm

Raptor wrote:
It was "global warming" until the winters started getting colder when it suddenly shifted to "climate change" and the former term was no longer in vogue. Right or wrong, it's part of the current narrative......

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