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ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 2:07 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Adopting, compromising, learning new skills whatever phrase you prefer is the correct thing to do.


Apologize I messed up these quotes big time wrote:
I find that attitude very disturbing and reminiscent of the most totalitarian cults or ideologies.

And how does one define 'being likeable' I try and be civil but there is no way to control whether someones going to like you or not.

Indeed. Trying to conform did not make me likable. It only made me feel empty inside.

I prefer to be my eccentric self and be truly appreciated only by other eccentrics.

Being yourself should not stop you from being successful. You just have to find other ways for people to take you seriously if you don't wish to conform to their standards.


I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites. And I can if possible grow and add likable skills. I think you are confusing the situation in 2015 wherby it is expected we must do all the adopting which is is wrong and self destructive, to situational adopting done by both parties in an attempt to accomplish something that would benefit both sides.

if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience. If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.


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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


aspiesavant
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26 Feb 2015, 2:15 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites.


Being likable shouldn't be a goal, because you have no control of whether others consider you likable.

Be true to yourself.
Be kind to others.
Act according to your conscience.

That's what really matters!

ASPartOfMe wrote:
if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience.


I figured out when I was 17 that I could never be happy when trying to conform.

Today, I spend most of my time among other socially awkward intellectuals with whom I can have meaningful conversations on anything from the most intimate emotions to the most controversial philosophical notions.

That's far more valuable to me than anything I could ever obtain from trying to conform. In fact, I I'd tried to conform, I'd never had the chance to get to really know that kind of people.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.


No disagreement here...





ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 4:35 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites.


Being likable shouldn't be a goal, because you have no control of whether others consider you likable.

Be true to yourself.
Be kind to others.
Act according to your conscience.

That's what really matters!

ASPartOfMe wrote:
if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience.


I figured out when I was 17 that I could never be happy when trying to conform.

Today, I spend most of my time among other socially awkward intellectuals with whom I can have meaningful conversations on anything from the most intimate emotions to the most controversial philosophical notions.

That's far more valuable to me than anything I could ever obtain from trying to conform. In fact, I I'd tried to conform, I'd never had the chance to get to really know that kind of people.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.


No disagreement here...





Even with limited skills think I have been able to partially control likability in some situations by yes being kind or sometimes doing the opposite. Likability is a goal, not the goal. I have written some angry posts here recently when I felt it was needed to get the point across or that was just how I was strongly feeling at the moment.


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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


aspiesavant
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26 Feb 2015, 6:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Even with limited skills think I have been able to partially control likability in some situations by yes being kind or sometimes doing the opposite. Likability is a goal, not the goal. I have written some angry posts here recently when I felt it was needed to get the point across or that was just how I was strongly feeling at the moment.


In my case, it's hit-and-miss. I have a tendency to polarize people.

Some people think my quirkiness is charming. Others think it's annoying. A small minority loves it :D



ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 7:18 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Even with limited skills think I have been able to partially control likability in some situations by yes being kind or sometimes doing the opposite. Likability is a goal, not the goal. I have written some angry posts here recently when I felt it was needed to get the point across or that was just how I was strongly feeling at the moment.


In my case, it's hit-and-miss. I have a tendency to polarize people.

Some people think my quirkiness is charming. Others think it's annoying. A small minority loves it :D


Definitely some misses


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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


androbot01
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27 Feb 2015, 9:22 am

Found this article on AWN about ABA.

My Thoughts on ABA Written by Amy Sequenzia

I agree with her. The fundamental principle of ABA is flawed because it views autistic traits as incompatible with integration. In cases of other disabilities it is society that changes to become more compatible. For example, wheelchair access, sign language, accommodations for service animals. What is it about autism that people think needs to be hidden? Honestly, it's like it is some dirty secret to be buried at all costs.



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27 Feb 2015, 10:42 am

There's an easy answer for "What is it about autism".

It's the same answer as "What is it about XXX culture" or "What is it about XXX language."

Accommodating us forces them out of their comfort zone in a fundamental way.

They can be tied in knots to come into our comfort zone, or we can be tied in knots to come into theirs.

"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."

They're the majority. By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules. They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.

It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules. If we're going to be accorded any consideration, to continue the metaphor, it's going to be because their mothers taught them to play nicely, and they like us and feel like doing as their mothers taught them.

If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.

It's not nice, it's not fair, and it's not really right. If the positions were reversed-- if the majority was on our side and the wiring currently known as "NT" was the 2-and-some-fraction-percent minority-- it wouldn't be nice or fair or right to them, and they would be the ones tied up in knots, shut out, and hurting.

That's the reality down here on the ground.

All the chest beating, head banging, and CO2 emission in the world isn't going to change that.

It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


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androbot01
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27 Feb 2015, 11:00 am

Yeah, but it is possible over time for them to become familiar and accepting. Look at the popularity of Sheldon.

But you're right. There does seem to be something unique to autism that fills people with ... fear, disgust? I'm not sure. I hope familiarity leads to acceptance, but probably not in my lifetime.



aspiesavant
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27 Feb 2015, 11:15 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."


That used to be the prevailing attitude, yes.

Today, however, that attitude is very politically incorrect.

Today, we're all supposed to embrace people of minority ethnic groups, minority religions, minority gender identities, minority sexual preference, etc.

If it's possible for society to consider transgender people as "normal", it should most definitely be possible for them to consider Autistic people as "normal".

BuyerBeware wrote:
By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules.


There's no such thing as "democracy".

Plutocracy/oligarchy rules. And it is through the media and education system that the masses are socially engineered to embrace the plutocracy's agenda as their own.

BuyerBeware wrote:
They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.


They may be on top today, but I'm not so sure that has always been the case.

BuyerBeware wrote:
It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules.


I don't see why we should.

BuyerBeware wrote:
If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.


No one likes a spineless lap dog.

"Neurotypicals" and Autists alike tend to have far more respect for someone who stands up for himself/herself and what he/she believes in than a meek conformist.

BuyerBeware wrote:
It's a neurotypical world.


It used to be a straight world.
Gender used to be a binary notion.

Just the last two decades, public opinion radically changed in that area, even though the LGBT community remains but a small minority of the general population.

I see no reason not to at least try to change public opinion in our favor similar to how LGBT activists have been trying to do the same for their community.



ASPartOfMe
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27 Feb 2015, 12:34 pm

I understand and frankly very slowly coming to understand even more with our social issues and aversion to conflict it is going to take us longer then some of these other groups. Little chance is better then no chance at all. No chance at all if we say it's their world nothing we can do. If we do that not only will we not gain but we will lose the gains we have and it will be back to the 1950's sans the good economy of at least some merit hiring of those days. I saw on the news the other day in NYC a teacher was arrested and fired for attacking an autistic kid. This is not true everywhere many communities have supported the teachers that do this, but it is an example of progress. There are many powerful groups that want the definition of Autism to go back to those days and without resistance they are guaranteed to get what they want. I predict "nuerodiversty" supporter will equal fictitious disorder if this happens.

I grew in the old school days and have no desire to go back there.
.


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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


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02 Mar 2015, 8:33 pm

Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different." because the condition would make it impossible to function even "in a vacuum" because of low intelligence, extreme sensory issues,etc. So in that sense neurodiversity is wrong. Now for those who are very mild, it may only be "bad " in the sense that your weaknesses are not the same as other people's. You may have the same level of weaknesses and strengths as other people, yet your weakness just happens to be different from most people's. So you are forced to live in a world that is not accommodating or understanding of your weakness. Yet, you may be better off than an NT - because perhaps you have a skill set that the average NT does not have. Now I agree, most people on the spectrum don't have such a wonderful prognosis (high unemployment), so in that case you are right.

Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed- just like being covered in purple fur would be. There should be a "cure" in the sense of making everyone with the "aspie neurotype" more able to function well in society (better at faking NT) while still having the "aspie neurotype".



Last edited by GoofyGreatDane on 02 Mar 2015, 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Mar 2015, 8:41 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
There's an easy answer for "What is it about autism".

It's the same answer as "What is it about XXX culture" or "What is it about XXX language."

Accommodating us forces them out of their comfort zone in a fundamental way.

They can be tied in knots to come into our comfort zone, or we can be tied in knots to come into theirs.

"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."

They're the majority. By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules. They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.

It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules. If we're going to be accorded any consideration, to continue the metaphor, it's going to be because their mothers taught them to play nicely, and they like us and feel like doing as their mothers taught them.

If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.

It's not nice, it's not fair, and it's not really right. If the positions were reversed-- if the majority was on our side and the wiring currently known as "NT" was the 2-and-some-fraction-percent minority-- it wouldn't be nice or fair or right to them, and they would be the ones tied up in knots, shut out, and hurting.

That's the reality down here on the ground.

All the chest beating, head banging, and CO2 emission in the world isn't going to change that.

It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That all sounds very self defeating...in other news societies are not solid they are more fluid and can thus be adjusted to better accommodate everyone within it. But people have to say something about it not just go along with BS like that and try to justify some kind of 'neurotypical' privilege...I think challenging that is better than going along with it but that's just me.


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02 Mar 2015, 8:46 pm

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different." because the condition would make it impossible to function even "in a vacuum" because of low intelligence, extreme sensory issues,etc. So in that sense neurodiversity is wrong. Now for those who are very mild- perhaps not even most aspies- autism/asperger's becomes more like being born with purple hair all over your body- the condition is mostly disabling only in the sense that you find it hard to reach your full potential because people think you are different. An aspie and an NT will both have strengths and weaknesses, but because the aspie's area of weakness is not typical, he or she will be judged more harshly than an NT would for his weaknesses. This can lead to underemployment. An aspie may immediately be seen as inferior simply because his deficiencies in nonverbal communication can make him look "different/ret*d" in a photograph, or because he has a stutter or something. People will accept someone of a different nationality who has mild difficulties with social interaction and communication, but will not accept the aspie- why is that?

Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed- just like being covered in purple fur would be. There should be a "cure" in the sense of making everyone with the "aspie neurotype" more able to function well in society (better at faking NT) while still having the "aspie neurotype".


My autism is disabling in other ways aside from just the general social issues, my sensory issues are pretty severe and a number of other things...but I still do not see how that makes neurodiversity 'wrong' that's pretty much saying its wrong for people more disabled by it to exist which doesn't solve anything or provide help for any of those more severe issues....many who are more severely effected than your example of a very high functioning individual with aspergers still don't agree on your perspective.

Also no the goal should not be to make people on the spectrum better at faking being NT, that just defeats the whole purpose.


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03 Mar 2015, 5:39 am

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different."


"Neurotypicals" range from mentally challenged to genius. The same applies to Autists.

I don't see why we should blame an individual being mentally challenged or otherwise incompetent any more on his/her Autism than we should blame it on him/her being "neurotypical".

My Autism is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. And from my perspective, it's not so much Autistic people but rather "neurotypicals" who are handicapped, due to their being far more prone to prejudice, sensitive to indoctrination, etc.

It's all in the eyes of the beholder, really. It's all a matter of perspective.

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed


They used to say that about homosexuality.

Norms can change.



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04 Mar 2015, 11:15 am

BuyerBeware wrote:


It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That's what I was trying to say - thanks!



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04 Mar 2015, 11:34 am

Fruglepug wrote:
BuyerBeware wrote:


It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That's what I was trying to say - thanks!


Trouble is that is hardly true....most societies however cater to neurotypicals, but doesn't mean it has to be that way or its then end all/be all state of things or whatever like some of you enjoy suggesting. It's a neurodiverse world, society ought to make way and get on with the reality check already.


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