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Jono
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19 Dec 2014, 7:03 pm

Angel2Kalen wrote:
This morning I wrote a note to my fiancé bringing up what bothered me last night and this morning, it was the same type of usual troubles, cursing and communication. I wanted to be sure that I was able to let him know I felt because I had to go to work and he was still mostly asleep. I had brought up about him possibly taking anger management classes to see if that would help, he said his last wife had him take anger management classes and they didn't help because they didn't touch on any of his triggers. We talked a little bit about it and we gave each of our feelings about what had happened.

I read the other posts and it is true that I want him to put more effort into trying to work with me to make the relationship better. From what I understand from him his past relationship had no tolerance for trying to work with someone with AS so he spent a majority of his time staying away from her, closed up in his room playing games. He didn't eat with the family he just shut himself away to avoid problems or arguments. My previous relationship was a mentally and/or emotionally abusive one that truly didn't care about anything I said or felt. I was bit by one of our dogs and even after a week went by and my arm had swollen and turned purple he told me to not go to the ER because he didn't want the dog to get into trouble. We got divorced finally because he toyed with my emotions one too many times with saying that he originally brought up about us splitting up just to see how I'd react.

My AS fiancé will listen to me, and I think with effort I will get through to him and hopefully help him understand that some things shouldn't be said, or in a certain way. He says he raises his voice only because I do, if I do I don't realize it, and I try hard to control my tone no only not to yell but also because he can have sensitive hearing.

I appreciate the responses to my post because I like finding out good ways to deal with the situation, I'm not beyond leaving but I would rather stay with him and work with him and only leave if there seems to be absolutely nothing else that can be done.


Thanks for the information. I think that I'm now starting to understand what's going on. I wasn't trying to suggest that you immediately leave him, just that you first try and get him to understand how some of things he does makes you feel. From what you've just posted, I think that there may be more going on here than just your fiancé's ASD though. For example, you've said that your previous relationship was emotionally and mentally abusive and from the description of that incident with the dog, it sounds like your previous relationship was far worse than any of the issues with your current one with your fiancé. Do you think that you may developed PTSD from the abuse in your previous relationship?

With regards to anger management courses for your fiancé, I know that Tony Attwood who's expert in Asperger syndrome says that there are some anger management courses that cater specifically to people with Asperger's which take all those things into account:

http://www.aspergerfoundation.org.uk/infosheets/a_angermanagement.pdf

Here's a link to Tony Attwood's website:

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au

More than that, I'm not sure what other information to give you on this particular point.

I'm just wondering, have you considered that both you may need see a therapist? Maybe you as well as him because I'm not sure if you're still affected by that abuse that you've experienced in your previous relationship.

It sounds to me like you can still work through the problems that you currently have in this relationship and that despite everything, your fiancé still tries to be understanding. Good luck.



AngelRho
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19 Dec 2014, 9:47 pm

Yeah…I'm gonna defer to Jono on this one. Good advice.

Like I said, I really do think this relationship is salvageable. It may not seem like it, but I'm on your side here in terms of making it work. I've been in a troubled relationship (not marriage) with an NT before, and the difficulty for me was understanding the difference between abuse and someone acting out because I genuinely messed up. The painful lesson I learned from that was, quite simply, miserable people are going to be miserable and will make you miserable, too. In our case, there was nowhere left to go with the relationship. We slept together a few times afterwards, but when she started telling my friends we were getting back together and resumed yelling at me on a regular basis, I decided enough was enough and it was time to pull her b!tch-hooks out of me.

I only bring that up to say that we both had issues in the relationship, and I feel that by dealing with those issues and seeing other people, we both ended up in happy relationships. We just couldn't do that with each other.

I think you can find a way to do that. I still think you need to downshift a few gears and maybe later revisit your engagement and future marriage. If you enter into this thing as a miserable person, and likewise, if he does the same, it's only going to get worse. Cursing you and telling you to shut up is absolutely intolerable. Some people benefit from relationship counseling, like marriage counseling, and my former fiancée and I gave it a try before we split. In YOUR case, it might save the relationship.

The thing that makes me a little nervous, though, is if you're already trying to salvage the relationship NOW, what can you realistically expect in your marriage? My wife and I had our ups and downs before getting married, and we came together and accepted the issues of the other as just a part of who the other person was…something to be celebrated rather than tolerated. It might require a whole different way of viewing relationships for you, but for us it has been foundational.



Jono
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21 Dec 2014, 4:16 pm

Angel2kalen, can you keep us updated? I'd at least like to know if any of my suggestions are helping.



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21 Dec 2014, 8:52 pm

As an NT lady in a relationship with an Aspie guy, I think a lot of what she's describing sounds like it could be communication and perspective issues and not actually abusive. I think, sometimes, what an Aspie would have to be experiencing to describe things the way the OP has is very different from what an NT would have to be describing, so that is why I say her descriptions sound like things which, coming from an NT, are probably things that can be learned and worked through. However, it's going to take awhile and a lot of learning to understand how to work through them.

OP, it sounds like you guys are making some progress with open communication, so keep it up. There were several things that I saw you say that really resonated with me, because I recognized the issue you were encountering, but I can't remember them all to address them all. Feel free to PM me on any issues, too, if you want, especially if there was something earlier in the thread that you'd really like to get thoughts on that I missed.

Of the more recent things you'd posted about, you mentioned he says he only yells when you yell, but you didn't think you were yelling. My Aspie guy has said I was yelling at him times when I didn't think I was, too - I think this is because his hearing is so much more sensitive than mine, so what I consider maybe "spirited" is "yelling" to him. That's the type of thing that as you guys work through and communicate more clearly about it, you'll be able to improve greatly, and I think a lot of the other issues will be similar.

Another theme I wanted to touch on quickly was his extensive gaming, especially on his days off and/or in his evenings after work. My guy is a gamer, too, and used to play a lot after work and often not want to do anything else till he'd played for awhile, and usually by the time he was ready to do anything else, it was time for me to go to bed. I used to take it personal, but discovered (and some others have eluded to this) that it was his most effective way of de-stressing from work. Yeah, I know, we're stressed from work too...but the level of stress he was dealing with was different, and it took me a long time to understand that. He was undiagnosed for the first half of our relationship, so when he'd talk about being too stressed from work, I never really understood it. He'd work a 4-hour shift at the grocery store and come home so mentally exhausted and stressed that he had to play games for hours before he felt better - to an NT mind, the response is, "What the heck? That doesn't even make sense..." But, after we discovered he was an Aspie (self-diagnosed), and as I read up more on it, I started to understand how his 4-hour shift putting groceries on shelves could be more draining than my 12-hour shift doing accounting work (12 hours was only during the busy season, but still happened :) ). I also began to understand why he'd still be stressed on vacation, because we had relatives around a lot and even interacting with them was draining. Now that I understand that all, we've been able to work out a much better situation - when he needs is de-stress time, I understand, and after he's been able to de-stress, he knows to help out. Part of our solution has included him quitting work, because that worked better for us personally (reduced his stress and reduced his de-stressing time), but I know that doesn't work for everyone.

Also you mentioned talking to him while he plays his game, if he's doing something that doesn't require too much mental attention - kudos to you realizing to do this. My guy is better at talking when he's doing something else at the same time and it took me a long time to realize that he can actually pay more attention when multi-tasking than when trying to do nothing besides talk, so bravo for figuring this out and working with it! :)

All in all, you guys have a lot of work ahead of you, but no good relationship can be had without work - just the specifics of the work vary from relationship to relationship. Stay committed and you guys can make this work!


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Angel2Kalen
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27 Dec 2014, 8:10 pm

I accidentally started speaking when one of his games was giving him instructions to do so he couldn't hear it and he got irritated at me. I don't remember now exactly how he released his irritation at me so that's all I can say. I felt hurt so I went to my own room and was in there an hour while he played the game. He was annoyed after he was done and I still felt hurt so I tried one of the suggestions of telling him in writing what I felt, that maybe we should work on communications more and not do anymore thinking about marriage until things straighten out more. I sent it in a text (we were both home) and that made him angry and heartbroken. He said I was cowardly for saying that in a text then went into his room and started yelling through the wall that I focus so much on his problems and I'm always trying to fix him. I feel terrible now, he left the apartment in anger after I asked him if we could talk. He said he gives up on people and that he was stupid for putting his trust in me. I tried telling him things aren't over, and please make sure he comes back to talk to me. I felt bad too because I know that I was adding to him freaking out by blocking him from leaving before I was able to try to reassure him things aren't over. I eventually let him leave, I didn't yell or scream at him or anything and tried to give him as much space as I could without giving him so much space he could just leave before I said anything.

:(



Jono
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27 Dec 2014, 8:45 pm

Angel2Kalen wrote:
I accidentally started speaking when one of his games was giving him instructions to do so he couldn't hear it and he got irritated at me. I don't remember now exactly how he released his irritation at me so that's all I can say. I felt hurt so I went to my own room and was in there an hour while he played the game. He was annoyed after he was done and I still felt hurt so I tried one of the suggestions of telling him in writing what I felt, that maybe we should work on communications more and not do anymore thinking about marriage until things straighten out more. I sent it in a text (we were both home) and that made him angry and heartbroken. He said I was cowardly for saying that in a text then went into his room and started yelling through the wall that I focus so much on his problems and I'm always trying to fix him. I feel terrible now, he left the apartment in anger after I asked him if we could talk. He said he gives up on people and that he was stupid for putting his trust in me. I tried telling him things aren't over, and please make sure he comes back to talk to me. I felt bad too because I know that I was adding to him freaking out by blocking him from leaving before I was able to try to reassure him things aren't over. I eventually let him leave, I didn't yell or scream at him or anything and tried to give him as much space as I could without giving him so much space he could just leave before I said anything.

:(


Oh my word. I'm so sorry to hear that. I really hope that things aren't over. My suggestion of telling him in text was only a an alternative way to communicate. From everything that you have written here, I don't believe that you're trying to fix him and I believe wholeheartedly that he can trust you. Could you try contact him again and possibly apologise saying that you didn't mean to offend him? I don't know if his reaction was possibly the result of his experiences in his previous relationship, which I think it could be based on what you previously wrote. If you texted him him right there and then while he was still upset, then maybe it wasn't the best time and it might of been better to of waited until you had both calmed down a bit.

I hope that you can contact him and make up. I'm really, really sorry about this. I didn't mean for this to happen. I know that you love him.



Angel2Kalen
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27 Dec 2014, 9:57 pm

He came back and we have been talking as he farms on his game. He seems to feel I said that it's over, but I keep saying to him that isn't what I said, nor do I want to end it. I'm telling him that I just want us to work on our communication.



AngelRho
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28 Dec 2014, 12:17 am

You're on the right track. Keep moving forward. Make it clear that it's only being engaged that you're a little nervous about, but things like that need to be straightened out BEFORE you can be engaged and even consider marriage. And with there being less of a commitment, he'll have more time to play his game.

Farming? As in Farmville? Do people even still DO that anymore? :?

Anyway, my point is if that's an issue, he doesn't really love you. He just loves what you represent. You're a companion, a hang-out buddy and possibly more whenever it's convenient for him. Insurance that he doesn't have to spend a night alone. I realize he's just acting out because he's agitated, but 1) he won't talk to you because he spends most of his time playing a game, 2) he calls you a coward when you text him something--which you feel is the only communication you can get through? Wow… Maybe he didn't really mean it, sure. But exactly what do you do with something like that?

No, stay the course, give the engagement ring back or whatever, "for now…" Bring marriage back to the table when you both have fewer commitments pulling you in so many directions. Get communication and other items straightened out NOW before coming back to it.

But, honestly, while I agree with Jono on pretty much everything, it wouldn't hurt you to start putting together your exit strategy. Maybe you won't need to. Hopefully not. But it's best to be prepared.

Also…I dunno if this means anything to you at all, but my thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep us updated.



Jono
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28 Dec 2014, 5:13 pm

Angel2Kalen wrote:
He came back and we have been talking as he farms on his game. He seems to feel I said that it's over, but I keep saying to him that isn't what I said, nor do I want to end it. I'm telling him that I just want us to work on our communication.


He may of misinterpreted you telling him that you want to delay talking about marriage as saying that you want to end the relationship. That's what I think happened. However, if you're still engaged and you still have his engagement ring, then means that you still plan to marry him and thats what you should point out to him. The way you should reassure him that it isn't over is by telling him that you still, at this time, plan to marry him and that all you meant was that you just didn't want to rush into marriage and want to see you cope with living together before making the plans. This brings me to another point though.



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28 Dec 2014, 5:41 pm

Tell him if he wants to be in a relationship with you, he needs to act like a grown up. Being in a relationship comes with certain responsibilities, whether the person has aspergers or not. He can't expect :roll: you to act like his mom. I'm willing to put up with a lot from people, but only so long as they are willing to listen and try.

On another note, if he doesn't normally act like this, maybe there is something wrong in his life. Try to talk to him about it. Maybe he's unhappy with work, if he's only been acting like this since he's been on vacation. But if he isn't willing to even talk about it and continues to ignore your needs, that isn't a good thing, and you need to make it very clear that you won't put up with that kind of behavior.



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28 Dec 2014, 5:49 pm

AngelRho wrote:
You're on the right track. Keep moving forward. Make it clear that it's only being engaged that you're a little nervous about, but things like that need to be straightened out BEFORE you can be engaged and even consider marriage. And with there being less of a commitment, he'll have more time to play his game.

Farming? As in Farmville? Do people even still DO that anymore? :?

Anyway, my point is if that's an issue, he doesn't really love you. He just loves what you represent. You're a companion, a hang-out buddy and possibly more whenever it's convenient for him. Insurance that he doesn't have to spend a night alone. I realize he's just acting out because he's agitated, but 1) he won't talk to you because he spends most of his time playing a game, 2) he calls you a coward when you text him something--which you feel is the only communication you can get through? Wow… Maybe he didn't really mean it, sure. But exactly what do you do with something like that?

No, stay the course, give the engagement ring back or whatever, "for now…" Bring marriage back to the table when you both have fewer commitments pulling you in so many directions. Get communication and other items straightened out NOW before coming back to it.

But, honestly, while I agree with Jono on pretty much everything, it wouldn't hurt you to start putting together your exit strategy. Maybe you won't need to. Hopefully not. But it's best to be prepared.

Also…I dunno if this means anything to you at all, but my thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep us updated.


I'm sorry but there's one thing that AngelRho keeps bringing up that I strongly disagree with and there's a good reason for that, I think that it's terrible advice. I may have said that I disagree with it before but after what has now recently happened with him thinking that you had tried end the relationship, I now really feel that I have to speak up about it. AngelRho's advice about ending the engagement seems to be based on an assumption that couples can continue a relationship after ending the engagement. Sorry but I think that this assumption is wrong because to the majority of people who have made the decision to be engaged, breaking off an engagement is a permanent decision to end the relationship, it usually means that they will not be getting back together at any time in the future. Therefore, people should only break off an engagement when they are absolutely certain that they do not want to marry the person. If you brake off the engagement like what AngelRho suggests, then he most definitely will see that as permanently ending the relationship like he did earlier and this time he won't be wrong because that's actually how most people would see it.

Also, the situation that you have now, that you're living together and engaged, is actually better, in a sense, than what you would have if you decided to live separately at this point in time. The reason being that at least now you have a chance to try and work through issues related to being in an AS/NT relationship as well having a chance to experience what a marriage would be like before making the final decision to get married. It's like buying a car and taking it on a test drive before making the final purchase.



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28 Dec 2014, 5:55 pm

IncredibleFrog wrote:
Tell him if he wants to be in a relationship with you, he needs to act like a grown up. Being in a relationship comes with certain responsibilities, whether the person has aspergers or not. He can't expect :roll: you to act like his mom. I'm willing to put up with a lot from people, but only so long as they are willing to listen and try.

On another note, if he doesn't normally act like this, maybe there is something wrong in his life. Try to talk to him about it. Maybe he's unhappy with work, if he's only been acting like this since he's been on vacation. But if he isn't willing to even talk about it and continues to ignore your needs, that isn't a good thing, and you need to make it very clear that you won't put up with that kind of behavior.


Read the whole thread. He is trying to meet her needs and she's trying to meet his. The issue is mainly about communicating what their needs are and the relationship has already improved from the suggestions already given.



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28 Dec 2014, 10:11 pm

Jono wrote:
IncredibleFrog wrote:
Tell him if he wants to be in a relationship with you, he needs to act like a grown up. Being in a relationship comes with certain responsibilities, whether the person has aspergers or not. He can't expect :roll: you to act like his mom. I'm willing to put up with a lot from people, but only so long as they are willing to listen and try.

On another note, if he doesn't normally act like this, maybe there is something wrong in his life. Try to talk to him about it. Maybe he's unhappy with work, if he's only been acting like this since he's been on vacation. But if he isn't willing to even talk about it and continues to ignore your needs, that isn't a good thing, and you need to make it very clear that you won't put up with that kind of behavior.


Read the whole thread. He is trying to meet her needs and she's trying to meet his. The issue is mainly about communicating what their needs are and the relationship has already improved from the suggestions already given.


Sorry, I had this typed up and came back to send it later. The thread escalated a lot between then and now.



AngelRho
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28 Dec 2014, 11:20 pm

Jono wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
You're on the right track. Keep moving forward. Make it clear that it's only being engaged that you're a little nervous about, but things like that need to be straightened out BEFORE you can be engaged and even consider marriage. And with there being less of a commitment, he'll have more time to play his game.

Farming? As in Farmville? Do people even still DO that anymore? :?

Anyway, my point is if that's an issue, he doesn't really love you. He just loves what you represent. You're a companion, a hang-out buddy and possibly more whenever it's convenient for him. Insurance that he doesn't have to spend a night alone. I realize he's just acting out because he's agitated, but 1) he won't talk to you because he spends most of his time playing a game, 2) he calls you a coward when you text him something--which you feel is the only communication you can get through? Wow… Maybe he didn't really mean it, sure. But exactly what do you do with something like that?

No, stay the course, give the engagement ring back or whatever, "for now…" Bring marriage back to the table when you both have fewer commitments pulling you in so many directions. Get communication and other items straightened out NOW before coming back to it.

But, honestly, while I agree with Jono on pretty much everything, it wouldn't hurt you to start putting together your exit strategy. Maybe you won't need to. Hopefully not. But it's best to be prepared.

Also…I dunno if this means anything to you at all, but my thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep us updated.


I'm sorry but there's one thing that AngelRho keeps bringing up that I strongly disagree with and there's a good reason for that, I think that it's terrible advice. I may have said that I disagree with it before but after what has now recently happened with him thinking that you had tried end the relationship, I now really feel that I have to speak up about it. AngelRho's advice about ending the engagement seems to be based on an assumption that couples can continue a relationship after ending the engagement. Sorry but I think that this assumption is wrong because to the majority of people who have made the decision to be engaged, breaking off an engagement is a permanent decision to end the relationship, it usually means that they will not be getting back together at any time in the future. Therefore, people should only break off an engagement when they are absolutely certain that they do not want to marry the person. If you brake off the engagement like what AngelRho suggests, then he most definitely will see that as permanently ending the relationship like he did earlier and this time he won't be wrong because that's actually how most people would see it.

Also, the situation that you have now, that you're living together and engaged, is actually better, in a sense, than what you would have if you decided to live separately at this point in time. The reason being that at least now you have a chance to try and work through issues related to being in an AS/NT relationship as well having a chance to experience what a marriage would be like before making the final decision to get married. It's like buying a car and taking it on a test drive before making the final purchase.

Jono, I'd just spent some 15+ minutes attacking the logical failures in your response when I deleted about 2-pages worth of dissecting your post in favor of something much, much more important than the fact that you're not even wrong.

The most significant logical failing is that ending an engagement NECESSARILY ends the relationship. This isn't even REMOTELY true. These two people cannot get married and reasonably expect to be happy together. Look at the facts:

1. She's hurting.
2. He mistreats/abuses her.
3. He ignores her in favor of playing a game, resorts to #2 when interrupted.
4. He doesn't allow her to communicate how she feels about the relationship.
5. He doesn't accept her attempts to help or understand him.
6. She's overworked between jobs and school, and he still expects her to baby him.
7. Her life and/or well-being is at risk as long as she's with this guy.
8. She cannot accept him for who he is.

There is no relationship here, anyway. The facts firmly establish that. Seriously, downgrading from "engaged" to "in a relationship" would only be an improvement since at least simply being bf/gf establishes some foundation for a serious relationship

The thing is, when one is engaged, one expects exclusivity that could potentially lead to a lifelong LTR along with all the benefits that go with it. What you agree to with someone in that kind of relationship might just as well be law. You must accept this person as he or she is under the assumption that he or she will not change. It's too late to "work on your communication."

When someone is simply bf/gf, the underlying assumption is that the relationship COULD possibly change based on any number of circumstances. You're allowed to cheat on someone, for instance, without fear of consequences. It's not a nice thing to do, granted, and it might spell the end of your relationship. But you do have a way out.

Being engaged, it is assumed that marriage is your intended goal and that the engagement period is there in order for two people to tie up loose ends and make preparations for the marriage arrangement, such as whose apartment you're going to live in, how close you want to be to your in-laws, how you intend to handle finances/debt, and so forth. It's not just try-before-you-buy. It's not just making wedding plans. It's "contract pending." It's not an appropriate time to discuss potential deal breakers.

If there is abuse and abject refusal to communicate, you don't need to be "all in" with a relationship. You need to have the option of leaving. We're having issues, those issues thus far are unresolvable, and I'm unwilling to commit to an unlivable situation AT THIS TIME. I need to be in a situation in which there are no expectations, where I/we can explore whether we really do have a mutually beneficial future together, or if we're simply incompatible and need to part on good terms while we still can. There's nothing at all wrong or traumatic about that…I've ended a relationship before in which I was so crazy in love with the girl, and she seemed to feel the same way about me, but we could both see that we had no future together. I was the one who initiated the breakup and probably cried the most. We haven't spoken in a long time, but we'd be on great terms if we did speak again, and I still consider her a good friend. It's those bittersweet moments that resonate in my mind the most, and I cherish them every day. You won't always get that, but it is so much better than having to endure waiting periods to finalize divorces and having to get a judge to tell you what to do with half your stuff.

On THAT note…if you're going to be in a LTR, you do need to get married precisely BECAUSE if you must split, you CAN get a judge to tell both of you what to do with half your stuff. I'm just saying it's best not to let it go there if the situation is unlivable.

Which brings me back to Angel2. Her situation is not livable. She wants to change him or try to change herself to both get what she wants from him and keep him happy at the same time. They either are not compatible or they are in a living situation that doesn't allow them to be compatible at this time. They need to at least consider they may not be right for each other. If they dial their "relationship" if you can call it that back to merely bf/gf, they won't have the pressure of assuming that their relationship necessarily has a future. Right now, they are assuming they DO have a future, and they are making that assumption under what seems to me quite dangerous circumstances.

This is the kind of crap you hear about in the news when someone kills his children before turning the gun on his SO and finally himself. I actually do hope I'm wrong. But as I see it, this can only end in tears.

Tell ya what…I think we need some mood music.



LillaA
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29 Dec 2014, 8:18 am

If my fiance came to me and said that s/he was calling off the engagement, I wouldn't think that meant "Let's not get married for a few months", I would think that means "This is Step 1, and next week I'll be asking you to get your crap out of the house". Stepping down a relationship almost always leads to it ending. It's like when a highschool couple decides to "take a break" - rarely rarely do those relationships get back together.

It may be illogical; I'll give AngelRho that. In reality, calling off the engagement is, simply, saying that you don't want to marry at this time, but may in the future. However, relationships are a lot more than logic, and in that "more than logic" realm, calling off the engagement is a likely indicator of ending the relationship.

So, I wouldn't call off an engagement unless I was calling off a relationship. Maybe delay a wedding date, if they had one planned soon, but I don't think I've seen any mention of a wedding date, so that won't be an issue. It sounds as if OP and her fiance do still plan to marry, so I don't think that a commitment to marry is fraudulent, even though the timing isn't correct right now. (Think about it - in some cultures, people get engaged as infants, even though they know they can't marry for years, so an engagement is a promise for the future, not a guarantee that it can be acted on immediately.)

I also agree that living together is a useful thing in this circumstance - if your goal is to learn to be able to be a happy married couple someday, then reducing your interaction to the point that you just have to put on a show once a week on a date would be counter-productive.


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AngelRho
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29 Dec 2014, 10:47 am

LillaA wrote:
If my fiance came to me and said that s/he was calling off the engagement, I wouldn't think that meant "Let's not get married for a few months", I would think that means "This is Step 1, and next week I'll be asking you to get your crap out of the house". Stepping down a relationship almost always leads to it ending. It's like when a highschool couple decides to "take a break" - rarely rarely do those relationships get back together.

It may be illogical; I'll give AngelRho that. In reality, calling off the engagement is, simply, saying that you don't want to marry at this time, but may in the future. However, relationships are a lot more than logic, and in that "more than logic" realm, calling off the engagement is a likely indicator of ending the relationship.

So, I wouldn't call off an engagement unless I was calling off a relationship. Maybe delay a wedding date, if they had one planned soon, but I don't think I've seen any mention of a wedding date, so that won't be an issue. It sounds as if OP and her fiance do still plan to marry, so I don't think that a commitment to marry is fraudulent, even though the timing isn't correct right now. (Think about it - in some cultures, people get engaged as infants, even though they know they can't marry for years, so an engagement is a promise for the future, not a guarantee that it can be acted on immediately.)

I also agree that living together is a useful thing in this circumstance - if your goal is to learn to be able to be a happy married couple someday, then reducing your interaction to the point that you just have to put on a show once a week on a date would be counter-productive.

I'll concede that, in practical terms, calling off an engagement often does lead to a breakup. What I'm addressing is a concern that perhaps this relationship was not a good idea to begin with. I have a suspicion that Angel2 hasn't been in a relationship with her fiancé for very long, and given her circumstances I don't understand the rush to become engaged and make serious plans to be married. Her current situation is unlivable, a fact that is being completely ignored in this thread.

I'd look at calling off the engagement as a means of reevaluating the relationship as a whole. When an engagement is called off, particularly in a situation like this in which the relationship is already in peril (or virtually nonexistent), and the parties are able to objectively reevaluate what they're even doing together, they can look at the reality of their situation and adequately assess that they are incompatible and continuing together does more harm than good. THAT is why people who break off engagements ultimately end the relationship. They had no business being together in the first place, they learned, almost too late, that mistakes were made, and they end up better off without each other.

Now, I'm not telling her that this necessarily applies to HER. I don't think she's an exception to the rule, but I'm open to entertaining the possibility. It's a test. If they can survive breaking off the engagement, they can try again later and turn it into something positive.

She has not considered, as far as any of us can tell, that they just might not be good for each other. I'm open to being wrong. But I've seen this kind of thing numerous times before. I think he's controlling her. I think he's manipulating her. I think he's coercing her. I think it's an extreme situation and, more than anything else, what Angel2 needs to hear from me (if no one else) is that it's OK to walk out. She's putting herself at high personal risk--or at best she's committing to lifelong misery. When I was in a similar situation, I started out with the attitude that I'd rather be dead THAN alone. When I was ready to end the relationship some 5 or 6 years later, my attitude shifted to I'd rather be dead OR alone.

I don't mean to sound like a pessimist. I'm an optimist, a glass-half-full kind of guy. And what keeps me optimistic in THIS situation is that her guy CAN change if he wants to. DOES he want to change? WILL he change? Is that worth waiting for? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not her, nor am I involved in her relationship. She has to decide that for herself.

Speaking of that "more than logic realm," here is my purely subjective, counts-for-absolutely-nothing feeeeeeeling about what she's doing by staying with this guy: It's suicide in slow motion. It's like I'm hanging out with Andy Warhol at the Factory watching young women destroy themselves. It's horrible. It's like passing by roadkill or a horrific traffic accident. You know you shouldn't look, but you just feel compelled to. Your conscience says "don't slow down, don't look, don't say anything, just keep going," but somehow you just can't. Moth to a flame. Maybe I get some bizarre Freudian gratification out of it, I dunno. But everything about this just screams tragedy of epic proportions. Heck, Biblical proportions. And just like everyone else, I can't seem to turn away from it. But maybe, just maybe the driver on an icy bridge will take his foot off the brake, turn into the skid, and regain control. Maybe, just maybe it's not too late to turn the Titanic around. Maybe there's just enough time to make it to the boat before the volcano blows. Logical or not, all I can do is pray and keep praying, hope and keep hoping. My fascination with disaster is tempered by my equal and opposite disgust for it.