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nerdygirl
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27 Dec 2014, 11:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
No evidence to support it. Not one tomb, but dozens. Enough alleged pieces of "The One True Cross" to build a condominium. No written Roman records. Only a few accounts written decades after the alleged incident, and not by any eye-witnesses. Even the "Shroud of Turin" has been proven to be a fraud.

It all has to be taken on subjective faith, and faith proves nothing.


Not one tomb, but dozens - what do you mean by this? Empty tombs?

I'm not one to think much of relics, either, so the wood and the "Shroud of Turin" have never been anything I have considered. (I am not Catholic - they seem to care more about relics.)

Eye witnesses - plenty. Matthew and John, the Gospel writers, were eye-witnesses to the resurrected Jesus. Testimonies of 500 people at once seeing the resurrected Jesus are mentioned in Paul's writing. (See below.)

Roman guards were guarding the tomb. How did they not provide evidence to squash a false story? The Romans technically crucified Jesus on grounds of treason. If the disciples were trying to say that he had come back to life and were still promoting him as a leader, wouldn't they also have deserved punishment? The whole story, if it were not true, should have been able to be squashed before it even took off and started a religion. You're telling me that Jesus' dead body could not be brought forward to prove that these people were just a bunch of looney story-tellers? The Bible says (Matt. 28:11-18) that the Roman guards were bought off to say that the disciples stole the body. Really? They could convince the people that these bumbling disciples got around a Roman guard to raid a tomb?

And what do stories written decades after an incident happens have to do with anything? Old people tell stories of their younger years all the time. And, besides, those accounts are not so far off as you imagine. Forty years is not a long time.

Twelve accounts of resurrection appearances:
1. To Mary Magdalene (John 20:11)
2. To the other women (Matt. 28:9-10)
3. To Peter (Luke 24:34)
4. To two disciples (Luke 24:13-32)
5. To ten apostles (Luke 24:33-39)
6. To Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30)
7. To seven apostles (John 21)
8. To all the apostles (Matt. 28:16-20)
9. To all the apostles again (Acts 1:4-9)
10. To 500 brethren (I Cor. 15:6)
11. To James (I Cor. 15:7)
12. To Paul (I Cor. 15:7)



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27 Dec 2014, 11:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
"Belief is Not Evidence, and Faith Proves Nothing." -- Me.

:wink:
I'd like to see you apply that dictum to your own assertions.



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27 Dec 2014, 11:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
The Crucifixion? No evidence to support it. Not one tomb, but dozens. Enough alleged pieces of "The One True Cross" to build a condominium. No written Roman records. Only a few accounts written decades after the alleged incident, and not by any eye-witnesses. Even the "Shroud of Turin" has been proven to be a fraud.

It all has to be taken on subjective faith, and faith proves nothing.
Oh boy! You think that anything will become "true" just because you say it?

Where do you think discrepancies in the date of the Crucifixion come from? Well, I'll tell you. Roman records (contemporary historians) dates do not agree with the early Church chronology by some four years.



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28 Dec 2014, 12:10 am

nerdygirl wrote:
Fnord wrote:
No evidence to support it. Not one tomb, but dozens. Enough alleged pieces of "The One True Cross" to build a condominium. No written Roman records. Only a few accounts written decades after the alleged incident, and not by any eye-witnesses. Even the "Shroud of Turin" has been proven to be a fraud.

It all has to be taken on subjective faith, and faith proves nothing.


Not one tomb, but dozens - what do you mean by this? Empty tombs?

I'm not one to think much of relics, either, so the wood and the "Shroud of Turin" have never been anything I have considered. (I am not Catholic - they seem to care more about relics.)

Eye witnesses - plenty. Matthew and John, the Gospel writers, were eye-witnesses to the resurrected Jesus. Testimonies of 500 people at once seeing the resurrected Jesus are mentioned in Paul's writing. (See below.)

Roman guards were guarding the tomb. How did they not provide evidence to squash a false story? The Romans technically crucified Jesus on grounds of treason. If the disciples were trying to say that he had come back to life and were still promoting him as a leader, wouldn't they also have deserved punishment? The whole story, if it were not true, should have been able to be squashed before it even took off and started a religion. You're telling me that Jesus' dead body could not be brought forward to prove that these people were just a bunch of looney story-tellers? The Bible says (Matt. 28:11-18) that the Roman guards were bought off to say that the disciples stole the body. Really? They could convince the people that these bumbling disciples got around a Roman guard to raid a tomb?

And what do stories written decades after an incident happens have to do with anything? Old people tell stories of their younger years all the time. And, besides, those accounts are not so far off as you imagine. Forty years is not a long time.

Twelve accounts of resurrection appearances:
1. To Mary Magdalene (John 20:11)
2. To the other women (Matt. 28:9-10)
3. To Peter (Luke 24:34)
4. To two disciples (Luke 24:13-32)
5. To ten apostles (Luke 24:33-39)
6. To Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30)
7. To seven apostles (John 21)
8. To all the apostles (Matt. 28:16-20)
9. To all the apostles again (Acts 1:4-9)
10. To 500 brethren (I Cor. 15:6)
11. To James (I Cor. 15:7)
12. To Paul (I Cor. 15:7)


There were also in fact first century accounts by Roman historians like Tacitus and Seutonius who wrote of how the early Christians were persecuted by both Roman and Jewish society. Kind of hard to have Christians without the founder Christ.


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cathylynn
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28 Dec 2014, 12:49 am

i worship the flying spaghetti monster and you can't prove he doesn't exist.



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28 Dec 2014, 1:22 am

cathylynn wrote:
i worship the flying spaghetti monster and you can't prove he doesn't exist.
If you give us a good description of what it does, how and why, then I bet I can.



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28 Dec 2014, 1:36 am

only believers can see him. he supports all things pasta. my particular denomination prefers whole wheat.



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28 Dec 2014, 2:04 am

Sylkat wrote:
Dear Funeralxempire,

Don't forget Cyrus Teed!


Unfortunately my list was not a complete list of prophets. I think the Cyrus Teed threat has ended though.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Cyrus Teed? Who dat?


Cyrus Reed Teed (1839–1908) was a U.S. eclectic physician and alchemist turned religious leader and messiah. In 1869, claiming divine inspiration, Dr. Teed took on the name Koresh and proposed a new set of scientific and religious ideas he called Koreshanity, including a unique Hollow Earth theory that posits the Earth and sky exist inside the inner surface of a sphere.

In the 1870s, he founded in New York the Koreshan Unity, a commune based around his teachings. Other similar communities were established in Chicago and San Francisco. After 1894 the group concentrated itself in the small Florida town of Estero, seeking to build a "New Jerusalem" in that locale, peaking at 250 residents during the first decade of the 20th Century. Following Teed's death late in 1908 the group went into decline, finally disappearing in 1961, leaving the Koreshan State Historic Site behind.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Teed


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28 Dec 2014, 2:43 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Sylkat wrote:
Dear Funeralxempire,

Don't forget Cyrus Teed!


Unfortunately my list was not a complete list of prophets. I think the Cyrus Teed threat has ended though.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Cyrus Teed? Who dat?


Cyrus Reed Teed (1839–1908) was a U.S. eclectic physician and alchemist turned religious leader and messiah. In 1869, claiming divine inspiration, Dr. Teed took on the name Koresh and proposed a new set of scientific and religious ideas he called Koreshanity, including a unique Hollow Earth theory that posits the Earth and sky exist inside the inner surface of a sphere.

In the 1870s, he founded in New York the Koreshan Unity, a commune based around his teachings. Other similar communities were established in Chicago and San Francisco. After 1894 the group concentrated itself in the small Florida town of Estero, seeking to build a "New Jerusalem" in that locale, peaking at 250 residents during the first decade of the 20th Century. Following Teed's death late in 1908 the group went into decline, finally disappearing in 1961, leaving the Koreshan State Historic Site behind.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Teed


Other than the name Koresh, was there any connection between Tweed and David Koresh?


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28 Dec 2014, 4:41 am

cathylynn wrote:
only believers can see him. he supports all things pasta. my particular denomination prefers whole wheat.
And it lives in the blanket that you carry in the crook of your arm that has the thumb that you suck on the end of it. Right??



Kraichgauer
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28 Dec 2014, 4:51 am

cathylynn wrote:
only believers can see him. he supports all things pasta. my particular denomination prefers whole wheat.


As I avoid carbs, I'm afraid I must reject your god. :( :lol:


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nerdygirl
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28 Dec 2014, 6:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
nerdygirl wrote:
Fnord wrote:
No evidence to support it. Not one tomb, but dozens. Enough alleged pieces of "The One True Cross" to build a condominium. No written Roman records. Only a few accounts written decades after the alleged incident, and not by any eye-witnesses. Even the "Shroud of Turin" has been proven to be a fraud.

It all has to be taken on subjective faith, and faith proves nothing.


Not one tomb, but dozens - what do you mean by this? Empty tombs?

I'm not one to think much of relics, either, so the wood and the "Shroud of Turin" have never been anything I have considered. (I am not Catholic - they seem to care more about relics.)

Eye witnesses - plenty. Matthew and John, the Gospel writers, were eye-witnesses to the resurrected Jesus. Testimonies of 500 people at once seeing the resurrected Jesus are mentioned in Paul's writing. (See below.)

Roman guards were guarding the tomb. How did they not provide evidence to squash a false story? The Romans technically crucified Jesus on grounds of treason. If the disciples were trying to say that he had come back to life and were still promoting him as a leader, wouldn't they also have deserved punishment? The whole story, if it were not true, should have been able to be squashed before it even took off and started a religion. You're telling me that Jesus' dead body could not be brought forward to prove that these people were just a bunch of looney story-tellers? The Bible says (Matt. 28:11-18) that the Roman guards were bought off to say that the disciples stole the body. Really? They could convince the people that these bumbling disciples got around a Roman guard to raid a tomb?

And what do stories written decades after an incident happens have to do with anything? Old people tell stories of their younger years all the time. And, besides, those accounts are not so far off as you imagine. Forty years is not a long time.

Twelve accounts of resurrection appearances:
1. To Mary Magdalene (John 20:11)
2. To the other women (Matt. 28:9-10)
3. To Peter (Luke 24:34)
4. To two disciples (Luke 24:13-32)
5. To ten apostles (Luke 24:33-39)
6. To Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30)
7. To seven apostles (John 21)
8. To all the apostles (Matt. 28:16-20)
9. To all the apostles again (Acts 1:4-9)
10. To 500 brethren (I Cor. 15:6)
11. To James (I Cor. 15:7)
12. To Paul (I Cor. 15:7)


There were also in fact first century accounts by Roman historians like Tacitus and Seutonius who wrote of how the early Christians were persecuted by both Roman and Jewish society. Kind of hard to have Christians without the founder Christ.


Yes. I have not even spoken of arguments for the crucifixion or of the historical reliability for the Gospels (and the rest of the New Testament.) Josephus also wrote about Jesus.



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28 Dec 2014, 6:34 am

nerdygirl wrote:
Fnord wrote:
No evidence to support it. Not one tomb, but dozens. Enough alleged pieces of "The One True Cross" to build a condominium. No written Roman records. Only a few accounts written decades after the alleged incident, and not by any eye-witnesses. Even the "Shroud of Turin" has been proven to be a fraud.

It all has to be taken on subjective faith, and faith proves nothing.


Not one tomb, but dozens - what do you mean by this? Empty tombs?

I'm not one to think much of relics, either, so the wood and the "Shroud of Turin" have never been anything I have considered. (I am not Catholic - they seem to care more about relics.)

Eye witnesses - plenty. Matthew and John, the Gospel writers, were eye-witnesses to the resurrected Jesus. Testimonies of 500 people at once seeing the resurrected Jesus are mentioned in Paul's writing. (See below.)

Roman guards were guarding the tomb. How did they not provide evidence to squash a false story? The Romans technically crucified Jesus on grounds of treason. If the disciples were trying to say that he had come back to life and were still promoting him as a leader, wouldn't they also have deserved punishment? The whole story, if it were not true, should have been able to be squashed before it even took off and started a religion. You're telling me that Jesus' dead body could not be brought forward to prove that these people were just a bunch of looney story-tellers? The Bible says (Matt. 28:11-18) that the Roman guards were bought off to say that the disciples stole the body. Really? They could convince the people that these bumbling disciples got around a Roman guard to raid a tomb?

And what do stories written decades after an incident happens have to do with anything? Old people tell stories of their younger years all the time. And, besides, those accounts are not so far off as you imagine. Forty years is not a long time.

Twelve accounts of resurrection appearances:
1. To Mary Magdalene (John 20:11)
2. To the other women (Matt. 28:9-10)
3. To Peter (Luke 24:34)
4. To two disciples (Luke 24:13-32)
5. To ten apostles (Luke 24:33-39)
6. To Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30)
7. To seven apostles (John 21)
8. To all the apostles (Matt. 28:16-20)
9. To all the apostles again (Acts 1:4-9)
10. To 500 brethren (I Cor. 15:6)
11. To James (I Cor. 15:7)
12. To Paul (I Cor. 15:7)



neither, at least muhammad was an actual historical figure.

1- the gospels were created by titus and vespasian with some help from their family historian, josephus, who was also of the pisco family. the gospels, when completed, ~ 70AD, was in fact, submitted to the roman senate to prove vespasian and his son are gods... the many stories of jesus in the gospels mirrors that of titus's campaigns in judea... fishers of men for example... that is a play on words on the battlefield, on the sea of galilee, where titus slayed so many jews, that titus was a 'fisher of men' with the sea choked up with dead bodies... Go read the gospels, along side the war of the jews by josephus, as well as the historical accounts of vespsaian and his son, titus.

2- paul, who was also called saul, and his other not so well known name, apollos, was a master builder, also lawless. the dead sea scrolls calls out paul/saul (apollos) of tarsus a 'great deceiver' and 'liar'. paul gives 3 accounts of his 'conversion' on the road to damascus and neither one agrees on the details... as well as paul saying one time about keeping the law, and another, about not keeping the law... paul is lawless and is the creator of what became christianity...


so; all your 'sources' of the resurrection is based on error information... your 12 accounts are based on stories created by Rome to enslave a people in Judea, it worked so well, it is still working today... circular logic at work...

besides, what is the difference between the passover lamb and the atonement sacrifice? when they say jesus is the passover lamb... this then would only apply to the first born...and it is not about even taking away sins, but that the angel of death passes over you... nothing to do with atonement...

At least Islam is monotheist, as was Abraham.... while christianity is polytheist; (trinitarian, or worship a triune god)...


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28 Dec 2014, 6:36 am

Oldavid wrote:
Yep! Muhammad was an egomaniacal paedophile.

Muhammadanism is a demonically inspired plagiarism of Judaism and Christianity produced with the aid of Muhammad's insane narcissism, brutality and concupiscence.

Nice to meet you fellas. Are you up to facing up to Goliath?



Islam is a creation of the universal church, (catholic church), muhammad's wife, the one who did the 'interpretations' when muhammad went into trances and seizers, she was catholic.. Why is this virgin mary given much respect in islam?


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28 Dec 2014, 6:41 am

chagya wrote:
AntDog wrote:
Jesus Christ he is king of kings, lord of lords and conquered the grave!! !


There is much compelling evidence that the resurrection never happened and that the story of the crucifixion is full of holes. People will believe what they are conditioned to believe and not even examine evidence that conflicts with their conditioning. Old news.


from one source; in the earliest writings at the beginning of the catholic church in the 4th century, they had no story of the resurrection in their book of mark, it was added prior to the 6th century...


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28 Dec 2014, 7:27 am

Harvey wrote:
nerdygirl wrote:

1- the gospels were created by titus and vespasian with some help from their family historian, josephus, who was also of the pisco family. the gospels, when completed, ~ 70AD, was in fact, submitted to the roman senate to prove vespasian and his son are gods... the many stories of jesus in the gospels mirrors that of titus's campaigns in judea... fishers of men for example... that is a play on words on the battlefield, on the sea of galilee, where titus slayed so many jews, that titus was a 'fisher of men' with the sea choked up with dead bodies... Go read the gospels, along side the war of the jews by josephus, as well as the historical accounts of vespsaian and his son, titus.

2- paul, who was also called saul, and his other not so well known name, apollos, was a master builder, also lawless. the dead sea scrolls calls out paul/saul (apollos) of tarsus a 'great deceiver' and 'liar'. paul gives 3 accounts of his 'conversion' on the road to damascus and neither one agrees on the details... as well as paul saying one time about keeping the law, and another, about not keeping the law... paul is lawless and is the creator of what became christianity...


so; all your 'sources' of the resurrection is based on error information... your 12 accounts are based on stories created by Rome to enslave a people in Judea, it worked so well, it is still working today... circular logic at work...

besides, what is the difference between the passover lamb and the atonement sacrifice? when they say jesus is the passover lamb... this then would only apply to the first born...and it is not about even taking away sins, but that the angel of death passes over you... nothing to do with atonement...

At least Islam is monotheist, as was Abraham.... while christianity is polytheist; (trinitarian, or worship a triune god)...


I have to read up on much of what you said before commenting. But...

Your claim that the Romans invented these stories to enslave the Jews makes no sense. Why would the Romans create a character that many Jews believed would overthrow Roman rule (though they misunderstood the purpose of the Messiah's coming)? Also, the Romans would not know or understand the Jewish scriptures enough to create a character that fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies. If Romans created these stories, why were Christians later killed for believing them? How does it enslave a people to teach them about freedom? Jesus said that true freedom was found in him.

Now for your theological questions...

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Old Testament sacrificial laws in one act. He is both the Passover Lamb and the Atoning Sacrifice in one.

The Atoning Sacrifice in the O.T. was what temporarily satisfied the need for forgiveness of sin. That is why it had to be repeated. The sacrifice of an animal was a foreshadowing of the perfect sacrifice to come. Jesus was the perfect Atoning Sacrifice because he was human, yet sinless. In his perfection, he was able to be a suitable sacrifice. In his humanness, he was the perfect substitution so the sacrifice no longer had to be repeated.

The idea of him being the Passover Lamb is that the blood over the door frames of the houses told which houses were protected from the Angel of Death. This also was a foreshadowing of what was to come. It is about faith. The Hebrews in the O.T. story demonstrated faith in that they believed that putting the blood on their door frames would protect their family. Those who put their faith in Jesus are spiritually putting Jesus' blood on the door frames of their souls, so that when the day of Judgment comes, death will pass over them. Those who put their faith in Jesus Christ are promised eternal life.

You also misunderstand the doctrine of the Trinity. I do know it is hard to explain, but the best way I can describe it is a royal family. A Prince, though not the King, is still to be venerated. If a Prince is sent as a messenger to another country, it might as well be the King. Two separate people, two different roles, same family, same respect due, same kind of authority when it comes to dealing with the subjects of the kingdom. It is not treason to venerate the Prince because exalting the Prince is the same as exalting the King - one would be exalting the same family.