Can you make assumptions in science?
Admitted? You make it sound like a guilty pleasure.
Horse or cart, chicken or egg, what I've "tacitly" and overtly said is that religious morals are a human imposition, a straight jacket of someone else's rules. I also said that when I gave away religion, my beliefs and actions began to have greater moral integrity.
Turning away from religion does not bankrupt anyone's morals or ethics.
Or do you think it does, David?
_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.
Yes science has a large degree of a human element in it. People aren't perfect therefore science isn't perfect. Of course people will take this and go off on a tangent about how faulty science is. For the most part pure science is a good thing, it's the best way we can understand the physical world. Hopefully one day we can develop objective AI's that can conduct progress for us so it loses its subjective human element.
DentArthurDent
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As usual you oversimplify and ignore recent findings
Miller Urey
National centre for science eduaction
As to your question regarding "what evidence will I accept" Simply really. Produce peer reviewed calculations which show the energy throughput from the Sun, the earths core, and the earths rotation are not enough to balance the effect of entropy and therefore prove that evolution could not have occurred.
_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams
"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
You took me literally. I should have seen that coming.
I didn't mean that any human would extend the Miller-Urey experiment to 4 billion years. I was trying to make an analogy to the actual earth but that didn't come across.
But in a sense....yes. Things that are impossible over years or even centuries or millenia do become possible with much bigger time scales. There is a theme in your dismissals of science (which you call "nom-science" but it isn't). This theme is not appreciating very large scales. Something that is impossible in the time scales of a human life (the time scale of an experiment, including extended experiments ) becomes possible when your time scale is billions of years. Likewise you are not appreciating just how much energy the sun beams to earth.
Turning away from religion does not bankrupt anyone's morals or ethics.
Or do you think it does, David?[/quote] It necessarily reduces morals to a matter of temporary convenience.
"Peer reviewed" "calculations" in this context are only collaborated nonsense designed to fool the most gullible egotists.
But in a sense....yes. Things that are impossible over years or even centuries or millenia do become possible with much bigger time scales. There is a theme in your dismissals of science (which you call "nom-science" but it isn't). This theme is not appreciating very large scales. Something that is impossible in the time scales of a human life (the time scale of an experiment, including extended experiments ) becomes possible when your time scale is billions of years. Likewise you are not appreciating just how much energy the sun beams to earth.
No David, not ego but simple arithmetic. There were a number of things that I had difficulty with, as a Christian. Now I no longer judge them as intrinsically wrong. Most aspects of sexuality, killing when necessary (e.g. family threatened etc), loving self, enjoying myself on the Sabbath, women as leaders, being selfish, and many others. As a Christian, I believed all those things were wrong, yet intellectually I was conflicted about those beliefs. Now that I no longer have dogma telling me what's right or wrong, I have far fewer conflicting ethics. Simple arithmetic says with fewer conflicts, my beliefs have less holes, hence more integrity.
Or do you think it does, David?
Only if you're a robot. In another recent thread, I quoted the film Second Hand Lions. And I quoted it because in my heart I agree with it. Tell me where the moral inconvenience is me quoting this:
How is that a reduction to convenience, David?
Both of your comments quoted here are subjective assumptions, about me, and about people's morals without religion. But that's ok, perpetual assumptions is how you play it. I can work with that.
_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.
But in a sense....yes. Things that are impossible over years or even centuries or millenia do become possible with much bigger time scales. There is a theme in your dismissals of science (which you call "nom-science" but it isn't). This theme is not appreciating very large scales. Something that is impossible in the time scales of a human life (the time scale of an experiment, including extended experiments ) becomes possible when your time scale is billions of years. Likewise you are not appreciating just how much energy the sun beams to earth.
The proof is the Law of Extremely Large Numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_truly_large_numbers
The very large numbers are large amounts of time and large numbers of chemicals in the ocean.
You are probably about to bring up Borel in your very next post.
http://www.aetheling.com/essays/Borel.html
but... but.... but... he left out time on purpose for simplicity
large time scales matter
Borel left time out of his rule of thumb because he wanted to simplify these kinds of problems for those too innumerate to follow a more complex argument. Unfortunately, in so doing he oversimplified, and opened the door to all manner of misinterpretations. All by itself, the simple absence of time in an invocation of "Borel's Law" is sufficient to completely invalidate a creationist argument.
The impossible is always impossible but the improbable becomes likely when your numbers are large enough.
http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/It_is_mathematically_impossible_to_achieve_macroevolution_by_mutation_and_natural_selection*
*don't be fooled by the title of the link, it's rebuttals to that claim
DentArthurDent
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So David now that your entropy argument has been destroyed you are moving the goal posts to claim the input of energy cannot lead to increased complexity!! !! I suggest you look at the propensity for complexity and species numbers in relation to relatively high energy areas compared to lower areas. This is not only the case on the surface of the earth but but also true for the oceans.
_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams
"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
The Evolutionism is one of the "dogmas" of modern mind.
It goes beyond the purely biological field, and is applied to everything: nothing more is considered to be stable, for it is believed that everything evolves. In this sense, the belief in Evolutionism can be pointed as one of the causes of the triumphant relativism in our days. There would not be any absolute value. No truth, neither moral, neither beauty, neither religion, nor dogmas, nothing would be stable, because all would be under the law of evolution, this one, indeed, is taken as absolute.
So, the actual Evolutionism is more than a biological theory: It is an absolute principle – a religious dogma – of a relativist metaphysics. And there we see it is a symptomatic and revealing contradiction: relativism founds its bases in an absolute principle!
The scope attributed to the Evolutionism is so metaphysic that – obviously – reaches the religious sphere: God Himself is considered an eternal becoming, and not as the Immutable Being, “That one that is" (Ex III, 12).
Father Teilhard de Chardin – who Stephan Jay Gould judges to be the main responsible for the famous fraud of the man of Piltdown (Cfr. JAY GOULD, Stephen, A Conjuração de Piltdown, in A Galinha e seus Dentes, ed. Paz e Terra, São Paulo, 1992, pp. 201 a 226, and, from the same author, O Polegar do Panda, Martins Fontes, S. Paulo, pp. 95 a 109) — has declared:
"Evolution, is it a theory, a system, or a hypothesis?
It is much more than that. It is the general condition to which all theories, all hypothesis, all systems should kneel; a condition to which they must refer to, from now on, in order for them to be taken in account and to be right".(TEILHARD de CHARDIN, The human phenomenon, p. 245).
Julian Huxley, by his turn, shows how the dogma of evolution imposes itself as the foundation of the modern relativist religion:
"In the evolutionist way of thinking, there is no place for supernatural (spiritual) beings capable of affecting the course of human events, nor there is necessity of them. Earth was not created. It was formed by evolution. The human body, the mind, the soul, and everything that was produced, including laws, moral, religions, gods, etc., are entirely result of evolution, by means of the natural selection". (Cfr. HUXLEY, J. Evolution after Darwin, p. 246, apud OSSANDÒN VALDÈS, Juan Carlos, En torno al concepto de evolución, article in the Philosophica magazine, of Santiago, Chile, doctrinary Suplement of the Jesus Christus maganize, number 50, of Buenos Aires).
We believe that these statements by Teilhard de Chardin and Huxley are enough – beyond the exam of what happens today – to confirm what we said above: Evolutionism is the fundamental dogma of modern relativism.
Today, this dogma is impinged by continuous repetition and accepted by everybody, since all society breathes it continuously.
In professor Ossandón Valdés’ article, one finds a quotation from J.C. Mansfield in which he proposes:
"Let high-school students be soaked up with the thinking of evolution so that they get used to think all in terms of process, and not in terms of a static situation".
Clearly, this is what has been put in practice, in worldwide scale, to create in the youth a relativist mentality.
http://www.montfort.org.br/old/index.ph ... ang=eng#I7
The Evolutionism is one of the "dogmas" of modern mind.
It goes beyond the purely biological field, and is applied to everything: nothing more is considered to be stable, for it is believed that everything evolves. In this sense, the belief in Evolutionism can be pointed as one of the causes of the triumphant relativism in our days. There would not be any absolute value. No truth, neither moral, neither beauty, neither religion, nor dogmas, nothing would be stable, because all would be under the law of evolution, this one, indeed, is taken as absolute.
Meanwhile we have a religion which has itself evolved in its morals. What was acceptable in the OT - slaughtering of children from other races, taking women as concubines, and so on - is no longer acceptable in the NT. Even today, Christians would be hard put trying to argue the positives of slavery, even bond-servants. No, nothing evolving there.
Society has evolved too. We now have women voting and holding careers. OMG!
The above quote is squarely aimed at people who fear change (which is most of us to some degree) and by association making the word evolve into a 'dogma' word. Oh, let's fear the dogma of change... we don't want it!
Tough... things evolve. You could say it's a bit of a fad word, but it fits so well.
As my job evolved, I was given more responsibility.
Common goals became more important as our relationship evolved.
The situation with ISIS is evolving into a full on crisis.
What the heck is wrong with 'evolve' as a verb?
The whole montfort rant is an opinion based on the above-quoted faulty premise.
See the sudden leap here:
I so want to quote the Frenchman from Monty Python.
"In the evolutionist way of thinking, there is no place for supernatural (spiritual) beings capable of affecting the course of human events, nor there is necessity of them. Earth was not created. It was formed by evolution. The human body, the mind, the soul, and everything that was produced, including laws, moral, religions, gods, etc., are entirely result of evolution, by means of the natural selection".
Yep.. it all evolves. If it didn't, God's people would still be slaughtering children in other tribes, taking concubines and slaves, and doing other nasty things that were not only acceptable back then, but their God-given right.
No... nothing really changes. Everything stays the same.
_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.
Humans being per their own natural existence are perhaps one of the most fascinating examples of entropy overcome by mind over matter, at LEAST, DURING THE span of one lifetime.
Science suggests that the decline of strength and speed is inevitable after one reaches the age of 30.
Of course that empirical evidence is based on a sedentary population, moreover, after the age of 30.
NORMALLY animals REcreate themselves through the course of the lifespan through activities of rest and exercise to meet and adapt to the challenges of life.
l leg press 500LBS with my legs, per Nautilus Parallel leg press machine from the time I am 21 to just last year in the Spring Time frame.
I leg press 900LBS, just months later, as I simply find an adaptation through all natural challenge in martial arts and ballet dance to get almost twice as strong during that time period.
AND TO BE CLEAR, this is just one example in my life that I use here, as I can empirically prove it in videos and Hi-Definition photography evidence.
I come ARMED WITH FACTS, YES, in legs, as well.
I overcome what science suggests is inevitable entropy, in strength, among males at my age of 54.
I did it with mind over matter, WITH MIND AND BODY BALANCE.
Human mind and body balance, per mind over matter, IS the GREATEST ENTROPY BREAKER THERE IS, at least in human existence, as is.
OLDDavid, if you are weak now at your age, perhaps that colors your opinion of the entire Universe.
But nah.. Not me.. NOT ME who IS STILL MOVING Metaphorical mountains with the power of HUMAN WILL, FAITH, HOPE, AND simple belief IN ME with Trust in Mother Nature TRUE per ALL THAT IS.
All metaphorical and all literal MIXED where the FLESH AND BLOOD HITS the REAL ROADS OF LIFE.
YOU can dwindle away to entropy if you like, but I OPERATE with the Power of HUMAN relative FREE WILL, FAITH, HOPE, AND THE BELIEF IN ME WITH TRUST IN MOTHER NATURE TRUE, as something much more, than a frigging material reductionist science view.
MAGIC IS IN THE MIND AND SOUL, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS HEaRT.
Science is just a sketch, a black and white sketch, of what REAL INTEGRATED HUMANS WILL AND CAN DO in living COLOR.
While the pursuit of science is cool, the pursuit of human magicK AKA FULLER HUMAN POTENTIAL IS DIVINE.
And nah, while the New Testament has a few metaphors for it, there is NO EVIDENCE.. THAT I FOR ONE BRING to the table of flesh and BLOOD irrefutable EVIDENCE.
THE TRUE HUMAN FACT IS, if one believes in WHAT SCIENCE 'TELLS' 'us' alone THAT can kill what IS the true potential of HUMAN SPIRIT.
IN THAT Sense, SCIENCE CAN be an incredibly unhealthy tool.
HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL, FAITH, HOPE, AND BELIEF blows science AWAY, PER WHAT REALLY COUNTS AS A HUMAN BEING.
And nah, it doesn't have to be anything associated with religion OR culture either, as religion AND CULTURE tends to do even WORSE IN TRUE human effect and AFFECT BY oppressing, repressing, and subjugating human nature, through illusory fears, for materialistic gains.
I'm all about the flesh and blood, AS that's wHere REAL LIFE STARTS AND ENDS THE ROAD, of what we know now of 'OUR' realITy.
ALL these written words AND OTHER ABSTRACT SYMBOLS are NOTHING COMPARED TO REAL HUMAN BEING.
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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
DentArthurDent
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Ok so now that your attempts to fabricate science have been exposed we have the "i dont like it as it suggests morals are subjective" canard followed by the "evolutionism/evolutionists is/are a religion all to itself/themselves canard"
For the first one, well supply evidence that there is Objective morals. I know I can supply many examples of how morals change, Narrator has already suggested some of them.
Now for the asinine "Evolutionist" Canard. This word is used by creationists to suggest that anyone who understands and accepts Evolutionary BIology is subjegating themselves to a doctrine, and anyone accepting its postulates do so as a priori assumptions. To suggest this is bordering upon slander. Anyone who has read the scientific literature would understand just how false this "assumption" is. You are suggesting that there is some kind of symmetry between between valid, evidence-based, reality-based science and assertion-laden, mythology-based doctrine and you are completely wrong.
Evolutionary BIology has been tested, retested and subjected to every possible attempt to disprove it, and yet rather than being thrown in the bin as a crazy idea it has grown, matured, become ever more complex and marvelous, and right here is the difference between a scientific theory and doctrine, a scientific theory must be falsifiable. Evolutionary biology is so easily falsified, all it would take is the wrong fossil to be in the wrong geological layer and wam its finished. As J. B. S. Haldane is famously reported to have said when asked what evidence he would accept to disprove Evolutionary theory "fossil rabbits in the precambrian".
Aside from all the evidence separating Evolution from doctrine, there is also the little matter of the ability for a scientific theory to make predictions, something that Evolutionary theory has done on many many occasions, again this is something that a religious doctrine can never do.
So whilst you disparage those who understand evolutionary biology as Evolutionists, you might as well call us gravitationists, or for those of us who accept germ theory microbists, and as for those darn electromagnetists!! !
_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams
"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
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