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BlueYellowBrownGreen
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26 Jan 2015, 2:03 pm

I agree; the problem often isn't just as simple as someone choosing, this is true.

With regards to your kids, you identify your feelings of feeling out of control and that is taking control. Perhaps you've lashed out and slapped your child and then regretted it later but one can learn. You can identify when you are feeling overwhelmed. Often taking a deep breathe helps to calm a person and sometimes simply moving into another room to count to ten helps. You know that out of control feeling-but it doesn't make you out of control. Some people give into that feeling; they make a choice. If you have lashed out, forgive yourself and learn ways to cope. I think, for the most part, anyone can learn to not just give in to panic or anger.

Haven't you met people who always seemed to unleash their stuff onto certain others? They don't control themselves; they choose not to, but they can control themselves because they don't lose it with everyone. It can be cathartic for a person to give in to anger or to a panic attack but I believe we must never stop fighting and we must never give in. You can get out your anger by screaming into a pillow. A person can choose when to lose it (when it is safe and you are not harming anyone).

I think in most cases, when it comes to behaviour, we do have a choice. Even when we are very stressed out or overwhelmed, with self-knowledge, we can recognize when things start to unravel. We can think, "Okay, I'm tired and moody. I'd better watch myself. I have a short fuse today". Going through the self-talk helps.

I think too often people give in to their emotions and they can behave very badly. And then they want to shower up and forget it happened but often it isn't that simple. People often unleash hateful words onto others-words that will harm for a life time-and I think that is a very bad habit.

It took courage for you to admit that sometimes you get overwhelmed being a parent; that is very healthy. But I don't think that a person accidentally acts out. Often they lash out. They probably don't intend to hurt the kid but they choose to lash out and give in to their anger and frustration. It is healthy to recognize that state and to have strategies; what do I do when my kid is pestering me? How do I handle this? I can take a deep breathe. I can self-talk to calm myself down. I can count to ten. I can go into another room until I can get a handle on my emotions.

Just my thoughts.



nerdygirl
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26 Jan 2015, 2:27 pm

BlueYellowBrownGreen wrote:
I agree; the problem often isn't just as simple as someone choosing, this is true.

With regards to your kids, you identify your feelings of feeling out of control and that is taking control. Perhaps you've lashed out and slapped your child and then regretted it later but one can learn. You can identify when you are feeling overwhelmed. Often taking a deep breathe helps to calm a person and sometimes simply moving into another room to count to ten helps. You know that out of control feeling-but it doesn't make you out of control. Some people give into that feeling; they make a choice. If you have lashed out, forgive yourself and learn ways to cope. I think, for the most part, anyone can learn to not just give in to panic or anger.

Haven't you met people who always seemed to unleash their stuff onto certain others? They don't control themselves; they choose not to, but they can control themselves because they don't lose it with everyone. It can be cathartic for a person to give in to anger or to a panic attack but I believe we must never stop fighting and we must never give in. You can get out your anger by screaming into a pillow. A person can choose when to lose it (when it is safe and you are not harming anyone).

I think in most cases, when it comes to behaviour, we do have a choice. Even when we are very stressed out or overwhelmed, with self-knowledge, we can recognize when things start to unravel. We can think, "Okay, I'm tired and moody. I'd better watch myself. I have a short fuse today". Going through the self-talk helps.

I think too often people give in to their emotions and they can behave very badly. And then they want to shower up and forget it happened but often it isn't that simple. People often unleash hateful words onto others-words that will harm for a life time-and I think that is a very bad habit.

It took courage for you to admit that sometimes you get overwhelmed being a parent; that is very healthy. But I don't think that a person accidentally acts out. Often they lash out. They probably don't intend to hurt the kid but they choose to lash out and give in to their anger and frustration. It is healthy to recognize that state and to have strategies; what do I do when my kid is pestering me? How do I handle this? I can take a deep breathe. I can self-talk to calm myself down. I can count to ten. I can go into another room until I can get a handle on my emotions.

Just my thoughts.


There is a *nether region* where it is MUCH harder to control oneself, even when one is generally a self-controlled person. I have experienced this *nether region* in terms of anxiety and exhaustion. I can only imagine it also exists when it comes close to psychosis.



BlueYellowBrownGreen
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26 Jan 2015, 3:11 pm

Yes, it can be MUCH harder to control one's self but you still do, that is the point. In most cases, a person can control themselves. Also, a person can seek help so they can control themselves (that may mean taking medication) and then it is up to the person to control themselves in terms of taking their medication.

Just my opinions.



seeslivepeople
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26 Jan 2015, 4:27 pm

I think it is important that we all remember schizophrenia is fundamentally just a repetition of the brains primary functionality at its core. I mean, interpretation of reality is our brains primary function. So it is not hard to view schizophrenia as either A: a faulty interpretation or B: a secondary interpretation side by side the primary. At which point it is easy enough to pose the question of "can a person actually hear voices?" Well I assume that if you are not deaf you already know the answer to this question. Of course we CAN we do it every day. Is mental illness required to do so? No. Not for our primary function and to my mind at least not to any secondary functions. One also does not need to be "possessed" to become spiritually ill. Spiritual illness can simply be the exhaustion of the soul or the personality if you like that word better. I am referring to nerdygirl's post above here now. If mental illness is not required to experience delusions imagine the propensity for somebody possessing mental illnesses of various other kinds?

Amnesia is mental illness, not spiritual illness. The minds capacity to function fully has been altered/diminished.
One conversation about amnesia/dementia lead me to pose this question.

If somebody loses their memory and is constantly being pushed to exhaustive levels of re-assessment is it really so hard a notion to imagine that self-same person might eventually give up on sorting our timelines and just go into easy mode allowing whatever flights of their minds eye comes before them to dominate their assumed reality?

The point being that the person has made a choice. They have essentially allowed themselves to give up on sorting it out. Which is to say, their spirit has given way to their mind. Hence my interpretation of spiritual illness in regards to dementia patients despite the apparent lack of moral illness in many of them. Many people in the caregiving profession seem obsessed with linking spiritual illness with moral illness which causes an inability to see spiritual illness in certain disorders. I see no link whatsoever. A persons morality does not need to be altered whatsoever for that person to lose the capacity to conduct themselves in what even they themselves might view as a morally acceptable manner.

I feel this is an important point to address. Many people seem unable to move beyond the assumption that mental illness is somehow preferable over spiritual illness in the sense that it is free of guilt, however spiritual illness in this sense does not suggests any more sense of responsibility than mental illness does. I feel it is dangerous to associate the choice of giving you spirit over to your mind as a personal fault. And I think that is really what nerdygirl is trying to say. Just because you were on one side of the edge of willpower does not mean somebody else will be "ABLE" to come out on top. Odds can quickly stack up to an insurmountable wall. Stress/affliction are just one instance.

hope that wasn't too long sorry I don't do short well.



seeslivepeople
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26 Jan 2015, 4:37 pm

I realized too late that I should have specified I was referring to alzheimers when I discussed amnesia. I didn't mean to be vague. Hopefully this helps any confusion.



BlueYellowBrownGreen
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26 Jan 2015, 4:48 pm

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that this always leads to that or that people are always to blame for their mental illness because they chose poorly or that it is all about demonic forces, ect.. If you are going to make an argument, at least acknowledge what I wrote (if I didn't say the word always don't assume that I did. If I said in some cases, acknowledge it) or that isn't a fair comment.



seeslivepeople
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26 Jan 2015, 7:40 pm

I think you misunderstood the intent. I DO believe people can be at fault for their own mental issues. I do believe mental illness can be both spiritual and mental/physical. although I largely believe this one is spiritual. I do believe what she talked about can be the case and I also believe that largely what you were saying is true. I was merely adding my own voice to her idea. My own perspective. I didn't mean to appear to be pushing against yours. This topic is very alive for me at the moment so a lot of it is being contemplated while I am not here not just while I am here. I am struggling with this at a constant rate. In other words, my perspective is probably a lot self centered at the moment and not having nearly as much to do with either of you as it might seem or I might like. But I also do see it in my own perspective just like you do and I do in fact as you surmised have concerns about people viewing this wrongly. I certainly didn't expect my concerns to be an insult to you or I would have more carefully voiced them or perhaps not at all.

People misunderstanding me, story of my life. I'm sitting here right now wondering if you will see this post as condescending or etc. That's just it, I'm not but I can see it in the prose. This is just how I see/write things. I have written posts on forums that went old English/Hebrew etc halfway through the post. I posted it read it later and went WTF?! I didn't and don't mean to be offensive I just cannot stay on track or stay diplomatic at all times or for extended times. Truly sorry.



beneficii
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26 Jan 2015, 8:39 pm

BlueYellowBrownGreen wrote:
Yes, it can be MUCH harder to control one's self but you still do, that is the point. In most cases, a person can control themselves. Also, a person can seek help so they can control themselves (that may mean taking medication) and then it is up to the person to control themselves in terms of taking their medication.

Just my opinions.


If they begin relapsing in spite of their medication, which is possible in all cases of mental illness, then they may lose that insight and stop taking their medication. Is it their fault then?


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BlueYellowBrownGreen
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27 Jan 2015, 7:59 am

Hi see, I wasn't directing my comment at you. You are allowed to disagree with me anyway. I do think that very often a person is responsible for their mental health; you can give in to the panic, for example, or you can find ways to cope with it. There is a very good strategy for getting over panic (quite dated but effective). When you feel stressed, you use self-talk:
1) This is distressing, not dangerous.
2) I spot over-processing (when you go over something too much in your mind).
3) I spot self-pity
4) I am being too self-focused; it isn't just about me all the time. Often in panic mode, a person can very very selfish; it becomes all about them and their feelings and to hell with everyone else ( and other people have problems too).
5)And when you've conquered a fear, it is important to acknowledge your win (see, I did it). And if you didn't and gave into panic, you say, "Well, what can I do differently next time?"


With regards to bene's comment:
"If they begin relapsing in spite of their medication, which is possible in all cases of mental illness, then they may lose that insight and stop taking their medication. Is it their fault then?"; in that case, if the person is unable to take their medication regularly, they should be in a situation where someone else administers the medication for them or they could pose a risk to themselves or others. Because if they lose control and harm someone, even if it isn't their fault, others shouldn't have to pay because of their relapse (or if they harm themselves-they need to be protected from themselves). Just my opinions. Hopefully they have supports and people checking up on them if they live independently.



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27 Jan 2015, 8:25 am

BlueYellowBrownGreen wrote:
Hi see, I wasn't directing my comment at you. You are allowed to disagree with me anyway. I do think that very often a person is responsible for their mental health; you can give in to the panic, for example, or you can find ways to cope with it. There is a very good strategy for getting over panic (quite dated but effective). When you feel stressed, you use self-talk:
1) This is distressing, not dangerous.
2) I spot over-processing (when you go over something too much in your mind).
3) I spot self-pity
4) I am being too self-focused; it isn't just about me all the time. Often in panic mode, a person can very very selfish; it becomes all about them and their feelings and to hell with everyone else ( and other people have problems too).
5)And when you've conquered a fear, it is important to acknowledge your win (see, I did it). And if you didn't and gave into panic, you say, "Well, what can I do differently next time?"


With regards to bene's comment:
"If they begin relapsing in spite of their medication, which is possible in all cases of mental illness, then they may lose that insight and stop taking their medication. Is it their fault then?"; in that case, if the person is unable to take their medication regularly, they should be in a situation where someone else administers the medication for them or they could pose a risk to themselves or others. Because if they lose control and harm someone, even if it isn't their fault, others shouldn't have to pay because of their relapse (or if they harm themselves-they need to be protected from themselves). Just my opinions. Hopefully they have supports and people checking up on them if they live independently.


Have you had a severe panic attack?

There is no thinking when a severe panic attack hits. One cannot "spot" anything. The mental wheels are whirring a mile a minute and there is no traction, like wheels of a car spinning on ice. A car whose wheels are spinning on ice CANNOT get out without some outside assistance - sand, wood, someone pushing the car, etc. The car in-and-of-itself cannot use it's own power and weight to get the car off the ice. Likewise, when someone is having a severe panic attack, one CANNOT get a grip and stop the mind. In the midst of a severe panic attack, one does not even know what the panic is about. All one is thinking is "oh my God oh my God oh my God this has to stop this has to stop help me help me help me" over and over and over again at very high speed. Images of a million things are flashing through the mind at an unbelievable rate. At the same time, the whole body is experiencing a rush of adrenaline. The palms are sweating, the heart is racing. One might run, but where to? No decisions can be made.

And as far as one needing help taking their medication, that is why I said that we need to ask the question "How can we spot when someone is on the edge?" Someone may not know they need help before it is too late. Other people who care about the person need to be on the lookout and step in when necessary.

Living with mental health issues is kind of like driving in winter. The snow can be tricky to navigate. One needs to know when it is unsafe to venture out. One also needs to take extra precaution when driving in snow, like using snow tires, etc. One also needs to know how to deal with a skid on ice. However, all that knowledge and skill does not prevent all accidents. It prevents *most.* But, sometimes a patch of ice can be hidden under a layer of snow, unseen by the driver. It sounds like you are blaming the driver for crashing the car because he didn't notice the hidden patch of ice and wasn't able to regain control of his car.

I'm just saying that all the best self-care practices in the world do not prevent ALL breakdowns. So, we need to be compassionate towards those who do breakdown. It is not *necessarily* due to moral or character failure/selfishness or negligence or what have you.



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27 Jan 2015, 8:41 am

When I used cannabis I could hear screaming and banging from the apartment under mine. I only heard that when I was high and I haven't heard it since I stopped using cannabis as far as I can remember. Another time I heard the elevator sound but after a while realized it must have been in my head because it never stopped, it was just a long continual sound, which didn't make any sense. Cannabis also seems to be what caused me to shift from something like asperger's perhaps to something psychotic or whatever it is.



BlueYellowBrownGreen
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27 Jan 2015, 9:20 am

nerdygirl, you wrote, "I'm just saying that all the best self-care practices in the world do not prevent ALL breakdowns. So, we need to be compassionate towards those who do breakdown. It is not *necessarily* due to moral or character failure/selfishness or negligence or what have you"......I never said that it was.

Yes I have had panic attacks. I haven't had them very often but I know what you are talking about. It happened after I fainted and I was regaining consciousness. What a horrible feeling. My head was spining out of control. I was injured very badly because when I passed out, I collapse onto the bathroom floor and hurt myself (at the time I didn't know how badly I was hurt). When I woke up, I had no idea what was going on and I could feel myself spinning out of control-my head spinning, a feeling of panic about to take over. For me, I called out to God and asked God to help me. I cried out for help and doing that helped me. I had to regain my composure because I was home alone and I had to take care of myself. I had no choice.

Tomato; yikes. I am glad you don't take that cannabis anymore. I remember having a really high fever when I was young when I had the measels and I saw people and things that weren't-it must have been a very bad fever. I saw someone walking into my room and eating Kentucky fried chicken and I said, "hey, he's eating all the food" and there was no person there or any chicken.



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27 Jan 2015, 9:38 am

BlueYellowBrownGreen wrote:
Tomato; yikes. I am glad you don't take that cannabis anymore.

Well, I'm not so sure. I liked how cannabis f****d up my mind. After I had used it regularly for some time it was pretty much just a bit cozy, that's one of the main reasons I stopped. I didn't do it to feel cozy, but to f**k up my mind. f**k cozy, that's for sluts, I want to be transformed into a computer virus.



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27 Jan 2015, 1:58 pm

I have stayed far, far away from illicit drugs because I was and still am convinced that if I took them I'd go over the deep end and belong in a mental hospital. Pretty sure that I would gladly "walk off the edge" into psychosis with the aid of drugs and possibly never return.



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27 Jan 2015, 3:25 pm

I know of a piece of mental suffering that is impossible to overcome save by stopping your antipsychotic medication or taking a strong anticholinergic like Benadryl or a benzodiazepine: Akathisia, an infernal state of inner restless torment that in its severe state makes sleeping utterly impossible. You can try all the techniques you want, like yoga, controlling your breathing, pacing, etc., but the inner restless torment will remain.

This comes from personal experience. One time, I had this in severe form at a mental hospital at night, after taking Risperdal, and I begged the staff to call the doctor on call to allow me to take some sort of medication that would end this torment and allow me to sleep, but they refused, forcing me to stay awake for several hours in this state until my psychiatrist came in.

I told a different psychiatrist about this later and he said that is borderline unethical that they made me stay in a state of akathisia without providing any relief for hours.


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27 Jan 2015, 3:47 pm

nerdygirl wrote:
I have stayed far, far away from illicit drugs because I was and still am convinced that if I took them I'd go over the deep end and belong in a mental hospital. Pretty sure that I would gladly "walk off the edge" into psychosis with the aid of drugs and possibly never return.
That's something you have to make up your own mind about. But with that mindset it's probably best if you don't take them, since the effect might be dependent on the mindset. I had heard about psychosis but wasn't very worried despite having schizos in my family. I was in a deep hole and took the drug seeking spiritual guidance. The result seems to have been psychosis but I think that's a good thing. Now I look at people and even the disordered ones seem one-dimensional. I think drugs can be like sex might be. Not that have much experience of that, but I assume sex can be a spiritual and holy thing, and it can also be perverted. Same thing with some herbs. (not saying it feels like sex, just that it can be spiritual or perverted)