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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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25 Jan 2015, 3:23 pm

Should we?



trollcatman
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25 Jan 2015, 3:33 pm

Hate is a more appropriate emotion.



AngelRho
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25 Jan 2015, 6:00 pm

This is Golden Rule stuff. How would you want to be treated…by anyone? Let's say you persecuted someone. And let's say you found yourself in a tight spot, and the only person around who could help you would be the person you persecuted. You may or may not feel you deserve help from that person, or you may not even want help from THAT person…but most people would hope the people they hurt would be forgiving and help them. In the Bible, "love" isn't about what you feel. It's what you do about what you feel.

The thing with humanity is we all do well when we ALL do well. We are all connected. If one person is in trouble, we should help him. And when a person who helps him is in trouble, he should want to return the favor. All it takes is a single person's failure.

That's why "love your enemies" is so important. Someone might abuse us. But we all still need each other. Practicing the golden rule by loving your enemies/those who persecute you is often a catalyst for shifting attitudes, for turning enemies into friends.

By loving your enemies, you make friends. By loving those who persecute us, we can end persecution. Love is the most powerful weapon we have.

I forget who originally said it, but one of my favorite laws from 48 Laws of Power is "Beware the free lunch." If you show love for someone who persecutes you, they are indebted to you once they accept any free loving act. What does the Bible say about debt? "The borrower is slave to the lender." And once someone feels they owe you something, even if they are your enemy or persecutor, you are elevated to a position of power over them. Never underestimate the free lunch.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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25 Jan 2015, 8:13 pm

Persecution is such a complex term because there are so many reasons why people persecute others. I don't really persecute people but if I did, I would expect to be hated and wouldn't blame them if they did...but..if they were doing something horrible I would feel justified in persecuting them, especially if they were doing something horrible to me, someone or something I cared about. Then I would be very pissed off.

Loving someone who is persecuting is one of the hardest things to do and I haven't always understood how it can be truly accomplished. I wonder if those say it have never been persecuted but have, in fact, done the persecuting?



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25 Jan 2015, 9:43 pm

I don't think one rule fits all.

I've made friends with persecutors before. I've also had the opposite response.
It's a bit like people thinking tough love is for everyone. It's not.

Some people improve with kindness. Some people improve with harsh reality.
Whatever my response, I just hope I can be genuine.


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25 Jan 2015, 11:22 pm

How about no?



aghogday
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26 Jan 2015, 12:10 am

It's easy to love folks who persecute one, if one truly has enough cognitive empathy to understand why.

Those FOLKS who persecute have a human frailty, a weakness; It's as simple as that.

Those who LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY HAVE THE greatest STRENGTH possible for humankind.

Negativity inspires me, and that's all it does for me.

People who see me as an enemy often inspire ME the most.

And I for one see those people as gifts in my life, as I witness the light that arises from the darkest eyes of hate.

It's easy, at least for me, NOW.

But nah, for a long time it IS a big fat camel going through the eye of a needle, until I become awakened, enlightened, to the greatest of all human powers of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

IT WORKS FOR ME. ;)

And certainly requires NO RELIGION AT ALL. :)


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cberg
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26 Jan 2015, 12:48 am

Hating people just seems like a waste of the same energy I put towards the technologies we all access resources like this through every day. The more positivity I can indirectly project towards those who brush me off, the more decisive the influence of the ideals I support becomes. As a deterministic information theorist, I think the amount of data and philosophy I can crunch through as a service to my fellow free thinkers is directly related to the desirability of the circumstances I'll inhabit in the near future.


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aghogday
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26 Jan 2015, 1:01 am

cberg wrote:
Hating people just seems like a waste of the same energy I put towards the technologies we all access resources like this through every day. The more positivity I can indirectly project towards those who brush me off, the more decisive the influence of the ideals I support becomes. As a deterministic information theorist, I think the amount of data and philosophy I can crunch through as a service to my fellow free thinkers is directly related to the desirability of the circumstances I'll inhabit in the near future.


YES, I for one, believe that's a fact for those who truly practice it in their life, per loving instead of hating.

I have the results documented as working very well IN LIFE NOW.

AND I have total faith in more to come, as that is simply the way NATURE WORKS for those who use it to their advantage instead of disadvantage.

I find it truly sad to see folks torturing themselves like that but each person must find the truth sooner or later, or perhaps never, for SELF.


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26 Jan 2015, 1:43 am

They wont get my love, maybe forgiveness, and probably not hate either. They will more than likely get my cease of contact or cold shoulder.



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26 Jan 2015, 3:38 am

As AngelRho eloquently stated, there's an incredibly important lesson to be learned from "love thy enemies". I heard a simple quote a long time ago which went "resentment is like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die", and it resonated pretty well with me. I strive to eradicate hatred and contempt in my life; from time to time, there will be people who'll have it out for me for no apparent reason, but I feel no joy or catharsis in holding onto anger. It takes a lot of personal growth before getting to such a place, but I feel I can speak with honesty in that I would (or would at least attempt to) help those who would otherwise hurt me, and I feel happier as a result.



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26 Jan 2015, 3:50 am

I pity them after realising how jealous they must be. After all, if they didn't care, they wouldn't give a damn.



AngelRho
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26 Jan 2015, 7:05 am

Skibz888 wrote:
As AngelRho eloquently stated, there's an incredibly important lesson to be learned from "love thy enemies". I heard a simple quote a long time ago which went "resentment is like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die", and it resonated pretty well with me. I strive to eradicate hatred and contempt in my life; from time to time, there will be people who'll have it out for me for no apparent reason, but I feel no joy or catharsis in holding onto anger. It takes a lot of personal growth before getting to such a place, but I feel I can speak with honesty in that I would (or would at least attempt to) help those who would otherwise hurt me, and I feel happier as a result.

Well said.

Even if you aren't a Christian believer, the Bible is an excellent human relations handbook. The point is that YOUR needs don't matter. What YOU want doesn't matter. You can survive your whole life digging through garbage cans if it came to that. So don't worry about yourSELF.

What matters is what you do with God. We are all created as the image-bearers of God, so in order to see God, you have to learn to see other people. Even if you aren't a believer, that means putting everyone else FIRST. Your enemies, persecutors, friends, family…it's all the same. Everyone else matters but YOU. And if every single human being on the planet had this attitude, words like "enemy" and "persecutor" would lose all meaning. Because as soon as a need is perceived, there's a person running to meet that need immediately. The Bible is all about serving, not being served.

If you are consistent with an attitude of service to others, the idea that someone could dislike you or persecute you is going to p!$$ you off. You are going to try every trick in the book to get that person to like you. Because you want to be free from suffering, or because you want to be popular? No. Because you see the hurting within that person that causes them to act the way they do towards you and you want to see EVERYONE happy. You can't win everyone, but you're darned well going to try.

That's what "do unto others…" is all about.

That's how people become rich and famous, why rags-to-riches stories even exist. You have certain people who are extremely good at what they do, and they are obsessed with sharing those things with everyone else. And when those things make their lives better, those people want to see talented people succeed.

And then something wonderful happens: Everybody throws money at them, which they use to just keep doing the things they enjoy and sharing with people. And then they find they can reach more people if they can do more, so they *gasp* give some of that money away by paying people to help them do more. And people throw even more money at them. If this keeps up long enough, there's so much money floating around they can't figure out what to do with it. So they think about it for a while, and they hear about some starving, diseased children somewhere in Africa. So they buy a whole bunch of food and feed those kids. And then they pay a bunch of scientists to work on finding a cure for that particular disease, or they buy medicine and ship it over. And then they start building hospitals and stuff. And they don't even have to sell anything anymore, people just throw money at them for no reason… Well, there IS a reason, and it's that whole "do unto others"/love everyone thing they do.

And there you go…I just handed you the keys to unlocking the universe. Go have fun!

Seriously, though, that's all it is. What do we do with rich people in the West? We hate them. We persecute them. Because they have what we want. Dude…I don't want to be rich. Because being rich means having an enormous responsibility to those who made you rich. I feel sorry for those who are born into wealth because they have to spend their whole lives being taught how to manage it responsibly. I can't imagine how stressful that must be. People who actually ARE wealthy don't look at money as wealth or as an end unto itself. Money is a tool to help you do what you do, which is serving others.

When people become independently wealthy, they have to assess hate. Some of those haters are just jealous, as has been mentioned elsewhere. You can't do a thing about that. Some of the hate arises out of needs not being met or you just flat out suck at your job. THAT we can deal with. You got overlooked? Please, sit down with me. Lemme buy you a cup of coffee. I want to hear more about what's going on in your life, and let's figure out how we missed you. I suck at my job? Please, PLEASE sit down with me. Please lemme buy you a cup of coffee. I don't know how I missed that, but I need you to tell me how I can do a better job so this doesn't happen again. Both of you, look…anything in the store, you name it, I'll just give it to you. It's yours. On me. THAT is how you love those who persecute you.

And, I mean, you don't have to be rich or anything… The Bible was written more from the POV of Christians being persecuted for their faith. If a Christian is marginalized to the point he has nothing left but his faith, then the only way he can love someone who persecutes him is by sharing the gospel. But I don't think it ever really goes that far. Why the persecution? Because someone else is controlling him and he has no choice? Tell me what's going on. Do you really want to treat people this way? No? But if you don't, someone in your family could be killed? I see. I have nothing to offer, I'm sorry, but can I pray for you? Right now?

THAT is what it's all about.

My final word is this: Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth. I don't know exactly what that means, but this is what I think. The meek, those who have nothing, have the same fate as the rich and the proud. We all inherit the earth eventually. So as far as Jesus is concerned, as far as God is concerned, there is no distinction between the wealthy and the poor, no difference between persecutors and the persecuted. So don't worry about it. Just love everyone the same and it's all good.



aghogday
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26 Jan 2015, 11:02 am

AngelRho wrote:
Skibz888 wrote:
As AngelRho eloquently stated, there's an incredibly important lesson to be learned from "love thy enemies". I heard a simple quote a long time ago which went "resentment is like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die", and it resonated pretty well with me. I strive to eradicate hatred and contempt in my life; from time to time, there will be people who'll have it out for me for no apparent reason, but I feel no joy or catharsis in holding onto anger. It takes a lot of personal growth before getting to such a place, but I feel I can speak with honesty in that I would (or would at least attempt to) help those who would otherwise hurt me, and I feel happier as a result.

Well said.

Even if you aren't a Christian believer, the Bible is an excellent human relations handbook. The point is that YOUR needs don't matter. What YOU want doesn't matter. You can survive your whole life digging through garbage cans if it came to that. So don't worry about yourSELF.

What matters is what you do with God. We are all created as the image-bearers of God, so in order to see God, you have to learn to see other people. Even if you aren't a believer, that means putting everyone else FIRST. Your enemies, persecutors, friends, family…it's all the same. Everyone else matters but YOU. And if every single human being on the planet had this attitude, words like "enemy" and "persecutor" would lose all meaning. Because as soon as a need is perceived, there's a person running to meet that need immediately. The Bible is all about serving, not being served.

If you are consistent with an attitude of service to others, the idea that someone could dislike you or persecute you is going to p!$$ you off. You are going to try every trick in the book to get that person to like you. Because you want to be free from suffering, or because you want to be popular? No. Because you see the hurting within that person that causes them to act the way they do towards you and you want to see EVERYONE happy. You can't win everyone, but you're darned well going to try.

That's what "do unto others…" is all about.

That's how people become rich and famous, why rags-to-riches stories even exist. You have certain people who are extremely good at what they do, and they are obsessed with sharing those things with everyone else. And when those things make their lives better, those people want to see talented people succeed.

And then something wonderful happens: Everybody throws money at them, which they use to just keep doing the things they enjoy and sharing with people. And then they find they can reach more people if they can do more, so they *gasp* give some of that money away by paying people to help them do more. And people throw even more money at them. If this keeps up long enough, there's so much money floating around they can't figure out what to do with it. So they think about it for a while, and they hear about some starving, diseased children somewhere in Africa. So they buy a whole bunch of food and feed those kids. And then they pay a bunch of scientists to work on finding a cure for that particular disease, or they buy medicine and ship it over. And then they start building hospitals and stuff. And they don't even have to sell anything anymore, people just throw money at them for no reason… Well, there IS a reason, and it's that whole "do unto others"/love everyone thing they do.

And there you go…I just handed you the keys to unlocking the universe. Go have fun!

Seriously, though, that's all it is. What do we do with rich people in the West? We hate them. We persecute them. Because they have what we want. Dude…I don't want to be rich. Because being rich means having an enormous responsibility to those who made you rich. I feel sorry for those who are born into wealth because they have to spend their whole lives being taught how to manage it responsibly. I can't imagine how stressful that must be. People who actually ARE wealthy don't look at money as wealth or as an end unto itself. Money is a tool to help you do what you do, which is serving others.

When people become independently wealthy, they have to assess hate. Some of those haters are just jealous, as has been mentioned elsewhere. You can't do a thing about that. Some of the hate arises out of needs not being met or you just flat out suck at your job. THAT we can deal with. You got overlooked? Please, sit down with me. Lemme buy you a cup of coffee. I want to hear more about what's going on in your life, and let's figure out how we missed you. I suck at my job? Please, PLEASE sit down with me. Please lemme buy you a cup of coffee. I don't know how I missed that, but I need you to tell me how I can do a better job so this doesn't happen again. Both of you, look…anything in the store, you name it, I'll just give it to you. It's yours. On me. THAT is how you love those who persecute you.

And, I mean, you don't have to be rich or anything… The Bible was written more from the POV of Christians being persecuted for their faith. If a Christian is marginalized to the point he has nothing left but his faith, then the only way he can love someone who persecutes him is by sharing the gospel. But I don't think it ever really goes that far. Why the persecution? Because someone else is controlling him and he has no choice? Tell me what's going on. Do you really want to treat people this way? No? But if you don't, someone in your family could be killed? I see. I have nothing to offer, I'm sorry, but can I pray for you? Right now?

THAT is what it's all about.

My final word is this: Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth. I don't know exactly what that means, but this is what I think. The meek, those who have nothing, have the same fate as the rich and the proud. We all inherit the earth eventually. So as far as Jesus is concerned, as far as God is concerned, there is no distinction between the wealthy and the poor, no difference between persecutors and the persecuted. So don't worry about it. Just love everyone the same and it's all good.


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26 Jan 2015, 2:27 pm

Ahogday is describing gift economy. One of my favorite systems of governance, though it is not a christian invention. Nor does it require money in any stage in its' ancestral form; "el pueblo unido", as it were.


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26 Jan 2015, 4:47 pm

cberg wrote:
Ahogday is describing gift economy. One of my favorite systems of governance, though it is not a christian invention. Nor does it require money in any stage in its' ancestral form; "el pueblo unido", as it were.


Yes.. And of course reciprocation is KEY..:)!


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