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Narrator
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26 Jan 2015, 8:42 am

movie Batman Begins wrote:
Rachel Dawes: It's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you.

Mahatma Gandhi wrote:
To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

I wrote:
If action contradicts belief, then either the action is wrong, or the belief is.


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Fnord
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26 Jan 2015, 9:03 am

"To do is to be." -- Socrates
"To be is to do." -- Immanuel Kant
"Do be do be do." -- Frank Sinatra


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Magneto
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26 Jan 2015, 11:56 am

Eh. We're both processes that do and beings that possess attributes.



aghogday
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26 Jan 2015, 12:21 pm

If it is to be it is up to me.

Not sure WHO said that but i know IT WORKS. ;)


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TheAP
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26 Jan 2015, 12:23 pm

Narrator wrote:
movie Batman Begins wrote:
Rachel Dawes: It's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you.

The problem with this is that it assumes that you are defined by what other people see you as. Yes, that plays a part in who you are, but another important part is what is in your mind and all the things that make you, you.
Mahatma Gandhi wrote:
To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

This is probably fundamentally true, but it's hard to live for what you believe in all the time. I may believe in kindness, but I may not be kind all the time. That's just because I'm human and I'm not going to be perfect.
I wrote:
If action contradicts belief, then either the action is wrong, or the belief is.

I like this, but again, no one is perfect. Sometimes it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. I do believe, though, that we should strive to stand up for what we believe in.



aghogday
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26 Jan 2015, 12:33 pm

TheAP wrote:
Narrator wrote:
movie Batman Begins wrote:
Rachel Dawes: It's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you.

The problem with this is that it assumes that you are defined by what other people see you as. Yes, that plays a part in who you are, but another important part is what is in your mind and all the things that make you, you.
Mahatma Gandhi wrote:
To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

This is probably fundamentally true, but it's hard to live for what you believe in all the time. I may believe in kindness, but I may not be kind all the time. That's just because I'm human and I'm not going to be perfect.
I wrote:
If action contradicts belief, then either the action is wrong, or the belief is.

I like this, but again, no one is perfect. Sometimes it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. I do believe, though, that we should strive to stand up for what we believe in.


Yes, to effectively AND AFFECTIVELY play A game of life, sometimes, one MUST, BE, A DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

SO ThERE is no one answer that WORKS IN PLAY OF LIFE, WHEN ACTION DOES not meet belief.

Shadow of I KNOWS truth of i.

i of truth KNOWS I of Shadow.

Only Shadow KnOWS NOW.
NOW KnOWS Shadow Only.

(i said that;)

..But not this:)..


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Narrator
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26 Jan 2015, 9:23 pm

TheAP wrote:
Narrator wrote:
movie Batman Begins wrote:
Rachel Dawes: It's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you.

The problem with this is that it assumes that you are defined by what other people see you as. Yes, that plays a part in who you are, but another important part is what is in your mind and all the things that make you, you.
Mahatma Gandhi wrote:
To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

This is probably fundamentally true, but it's hard to live for what you believe in all the time. I may believe in kindness, but I may not be kind all the time. That's just because I'm human and I'm not going to be perfect.
I wrote:
If action contradicts belief, then either the action is wrong, or the belief is.

I like this, but again, no one is perfect. Sometimes it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. I do believe, though, that we should strive to stand up for what we believe in.

I wonder about that. I'm not sure that it's about not being perfect or doing the right thing - both of those are external values imposed on us.

It's in our nature to think beliefs are absolute and not conditional. So if I am generally kind to people but then on a bad day I get grumpy, am I just displaying a belief that is taking precedence for the moment? Deep down, I might believe that it's ok on some level to express my grumpiness and that voicing my emotional response is justified. So if I take it out on someone who is not responsible for my unhappiness, perhaps it's a deep seated belief that it's alright to do that for one reason or another. If I didn't believe it on at least some level, then why would I lash out like that? Logic will overrule the bad behaviour eventually, but before it does, what was the belief that caused it?

If a belief is hard to live, sometimes, is that because other beliefs overtake temporarily? If I want to show integrity at work, but then I do something unpleasant just to please the boss, am I going against my belief or is my belief in being a good bread-winner overruling my belief in integrity?

Do our hierarchy of beliefs contradict each other at times, and can we resolve that? Or maybe our beliefs are malleable and grey, molding themselves to differing circumstances. The pacifist shoots an intruder. The honest man takes a ream of printer paper home from work.

Perhaps beliefs are different, depending on whether they're about us or about other people. e.g. Premarital sex is fine for me, but you're not allowed.

Or maybe, belief is just a practical tool we use for keeping situations under control and will adapt with the situation.

And maybe each unexpected action betrays a belief that we don't even know we have.


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A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


TheAP
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27 Jan 2015, 11:17 am

Narrator wrote:
I wonder about that. I'm not sure that it's about not being perfect or doing the right thing - both of those are external values imposed on us.

It's in our nature to think beliefs are absolute and not conditional. So if I am generally kind to people but then on a bad day I get grumpy, am I just displaying a belief that is taking precedence for the moment? Deep down, I might believe that it's ok on some level to express my grumpiness and that voicing my emotional response is justified. So if I take it out on someone who is not responsible for my unhappiness, perhaps it's a deep seated belief that it's alright to do that for one reason or another. If I didn't believe it on at least some level, then why would I lash out like that? Logic will overrule the bad behaviour eventually, but before it does, what was the belief that caused it?

If a belief is hard to live, sometimes, is that because other beliefs overtake temporarily? If I want to show integrity at work, but then I do something unpleasant just to please the boss, am I going against my belief or is my belief in being a good bread-winner overruling my belief in integrity?

Do our hierarchy of beliefs contradict each other at times, and can we resolve that? Or maybe our beliefs are malleable and grey, molding themselves to differing circumstances. The pacifist shoots an intruder. The honest man takes a ream of printer paper home from work.

Perhaps beliefs are different, depending on whether they're about us or about other people. e.g. Premarital sex is fine for me, but you're not allowed.

Or maybe, belief is just a practical tool we use for keeping situations under control and will adapt with the situation.

And maybe each unexpected action betrays a belief that we don't even know we have.


I think sometimes our emotions override our inner beliefs. So in the example you used of someone doing something unpleasant to please their boss, the person probably still believes in integrity deep down, but for a minute his fear of displeasing his boss overrode his belief. Doing the right thing sometimes involves moving past those emotions and focusing on what you think is right.

I agree that our beliefs can change depending on the circumstances. Some situations are complex, and it's in human nature to be unsure of what to do. I think there are some situations where there is more than one right thing to do, and neither choice should be condemned.



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27 Jan 2015, 12:50 pm

Fnord wrote:
"To do is to be." -- Socrates
"To be is to do." -- Immanuel Kant
"Do be do be do." -- Frank Sinatra


:lol:


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