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B19
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08 Feb 2015, 6:19 pm

Last night I was listening to an interesting discussion about whether there is a distinct non-pyschiatric syndrome which could most accurately be labelled "Accumulative Stress Disorder", which is not identical to, though may overlap with PTSD.

There were two points of view, that ASD and PTSD were essentially the same, and the converse. I hadn't thought about this before, and this morning to clarify some of the ambiguity in my own mind, did a web search for any studies that might elucidate things a bit more.

This one I found particularly interesting:

http://www.johnbriere.com/JTS%20sx%20complexity.pdf

Also I have long been of the opinion that in adults on the spectrum, most will show symptoms of PTSD at some stage, purely from the accumulative stresses of being a square peg continually pushed to fit into round holes; it's a question of degree, I don't seem to have met any whom I would regard as having emerged into adulthood totally unscathed.

So that's my two cents worth on this issue today...



Erlyrisa
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08 Feb 2015, 11:06 pm

Hmm, Accumulative stress.
Post Truamatic Stress (Has the connotation that it will somehow go away)

ASD negative (vs. ASD Positive) , How can it be post traumatic, it is continual.

I like ASD positive (you know the type, they just love thier subject matter so much, and have always averted situations that cause any stress)

PTS does not go away, and alot of people that have been diagnosed, or are just plainly living in that state are pretty much screwed for life. Its not a disorder if you just came back from warfare. Some people are smart and become 'valued' members of society, others sadly become recluse, and may express signs of OCD and Bipolar ,, once OCD and Bipolar states are exhausted, they fall into depression. Happiness in bursts, is a sign of mania (giving up and just doing as what is in your mind, however wrong in the eyes of the normal people)

I have heard the theory, that all "wrong" pyschological states are a result of stress...but again who is to say that the state is wrong?

Early onset stressors, and ASD. eg. The infant you cannot hug. (or the MAN you cannot hug). In the first case the infant remembers a state it does not like (it is addicted too a comfort zone) The man on the other hand is just stuck in tradition.

The screaming infant: Sadly drugs do come in handy. Feeding the body is the hard part.
I feel for parents that have the infant that looks like its trying to kill itself. No-one knows what todo here...taking it out of the cot, and house, and maybe trying a completely different environment may do something (eg. an Eden environment - bugs flys and grass lawn and all). An alternate human figure may help too. Sound is a complex issue with the infant that doesn't stop, when its awake all it hears is like being inside a washing machine with spanners - non stop constant: Most adults would go crazy and want to die aswell. Feeling can be similar, constant palpitations like you are having an arrhythmia attack mixed in with anxiety. Sight at this stage is also having difficulty developing.

A succesful ASD negative child is one that has finally exhausted itself, and found a new elixir. The problem for that parent is to guage when to introduce the elixers in development, and drugs can help too slow the infant, so that it may eat comfortably.

A similar state exists with PTS: When and how do you introduce the elixer of a 'good time' to some-one who now mostly hates the world.


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heavenlyabyss
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10 Feb 2015, 3:03 am

I don't buy into all this psychoanalysis crap - no offense, but that's how I view it.

Once you start viewing yourself as a victim, you become the victim, whether you actually are or not.



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10 Feb 2015, 3:55 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I don't buy into all this psychoanalysis crap - no offense, but that's how I view it.

Once you start viewing yourself as a victim, you become the victim, whether you actually are or not.


To me that kind of rhetoric is something I find to be useless. I find recognizing things I have been a victim of helps me come to terms with things, rather than blaming myself for things that really where not a my fault like I did for quite a long time. But to each their own.

Though I never see myself as 'the victim' that to me would imply I'm the only one, and plenty have been victimized in life. Either way when someone goes through something traumatic and develops something like PTSD one of the worst things to do is try to put it on them....as if its somehow their fault they've been a victim of something traumatic which is BS.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 10 Feb 2015, 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

heavenlyabyss
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10 Feb 2015, 4:09 am

That's not what I meant.

What I meant is this idea of equating PTSD with autism. If it is true, it is incredibly tragic and scary. I don't believe these two are equal though.

Sorry if I offended.



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10 Feb 2015, 4:19 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
That's not what I meant.

What I meant is this idea of equating PTSD with autism. If it is true, it is incredibly tragic and scary. I don't believe these two are equal though.

Sorry if I offended.


I do agree with that, I do not think they could really be the same thing...since PTSD requires one experiences a trauma, and autism is what people are born with. I just know sometimes ignorant people think people with PTSD can just 'get over' the trauma and are playing the victim if they don't.....so that is what I mean. There are certainly people that try to act like they're always being victimized when they're the one treating others like crap for instance.


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Erlyrisa
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10 Feb 2015, 4:56 am

For a true PTS victim: Getting over it doesn't work. All you can hope for is being able to cope in environments where all members have not got a clue / were the part of society that put you into that place (Hippies vs. Viet vets) (Personally if I were a Vietvet, I would shoot hippies for sport. + thier parents. - MORE FUN THAN TERRORISM - soothing too!! - Take that Hanoi Jane.)

PTS in the sence that it is a condition brought about from "another realm", could be classified seperately. These people really have it rough, and those that do remember thier upbringing do revert to such as state, that is now classified as Autism/Add/ADHD...and as you can tellm through time the naming convention for conditions change. In the end we are all robots, taking on, and absorbing the environment as it has been dealt to us (Genie - Ferle Child) - I do not like using the word frdul, and spell inderectly so that google as less of a correlative ability, hence making it mor difficult for that person to live a life,



EEEEEEEEE


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Sweetleaf
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10 Feb 2015, 1:27 pm

Erlyrisa wrote:
For a true PTS victim: Getting over it doesn't work. All you can hope for is being able to cope in environments where all members have not got a clue / were the part of society that put you into that place (Hippies vs. Viet vets) (Personally if I were a Vietvet, I would shoot hippies for sport. + thier parents. - MORE FUN THAN TERRORISM - soothing too!! - Take that Hanoi Jane.)

PTS in the sence that it is a condition brought about from "another realm", could be classified seperately. These people really have it rough, and those that do remember thier upbringing do revert to such as state, that is now classified as Autism/Add/ADHD...and as you can tellm through time the naming convention for conditions change. In the end we are all robots, taking on, and absorbing the environment as it has been dealt to us (Genie - Ferle Child) - I do not like using the word frdul, and spell inderectly so that google as less of a correlative ability, hence making it mor difficult for that person to live a life,



EEEEEEEEE


Well than it is a good thing you aren't one...though its hardly 'hippies' who are to blame for that, so that seems like it would be an example of misguided rage.


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10 Feb 2015, 3:48 pm

B19 wrote:
Last night I was listening to an interesting discussion about whether there is a distinct non-pyschiatric syndrome which could most accurately be labelled "Accumulative Stress Disorder", which is not identical to, though may overlap with PTSD.

There were two points of view, that ASD and PTSD were essentially the same, and the converse. I hadn't thought about this before, and this morning to clarify some of the ambiguity in my own mind, did a web search for any studies that might elucidate things a bit more.

This one I found particularly interesting:

http://www.johnbriere.com/JTS%20sx%20complexity.pdf

Also I have long been of the opinion that in adults on the spectrum, most will show symptoms of PTSD at some stage, purely from the accumulative stresses of being a square peg continually pushed to fit into round holes; it's a question of degree, I don't seem to have met any whom I would regard as having emerged into adulthood totally unscathed.

So that's my two cents worth on this issue today...


You mean something like Generalized Anxiety Disorder?


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Erlyrisa
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10 Feb 2015, 11:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:



Well than it is a good thing you aren't one...though its hardly 'hippies' who are to blame for that, so that seems like it would be an example of misguided rage.[/quote]

Vernacular at the time as published by journalism (the other bunch to blame)

Baby Killer. -> This phrase will stick, and we will never forget.
It's easy if you try...DICK.

It was ok to be a protestor at the time...and it made ALOT of money for the journalists of the time. But when the war was over physically, socially it did not stop, and by all technicalities hasn't stopped to this day. Worst war yet.

(While some were at home making free love in the mud, on LSD, others were on LSD die-ing)

A good alternate movie to Apocalypse now, would be to make one that highlights what was happening at home -- oh, yeah is that movie called Forest Gump ( aka Greenie Gump dumbie - at least the chick got what she deserved - can't beleive she got to work as a normal human at the end, she didn't deserve it).

My decree to the nation at the time would have been that Vietvets have the right to shoot any person that opens their mouth too make political peace comments. Quite literally, they have free reign to just slaughter in any manner they so desire. No jail time, no repercussion...actually I would have rewarded for the grandest displays...that way the journalists stay in power. To this day those flower power people are still the ones with the assets living out in comfort spinning and weaving crap - they are the ones that became todays Journalists.

What peaves me off the most is that, again they get away scoot free, as the internet supplies them with nasdaq income, as they sit thier pretending to apply "knowledge" in order to justify thier existence.


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11 Feb 2015, 12:25 am

Heh, I find it amusing how this conversation slowly turned from a discussion of the similarities and differences between a disorder that results in an ungodly amount of stress and an ungodly amount of stress resulting in a disorder, to an opinionated discussion of the after-affects of the Vietnam War. Human conversation, even as said by people like us, is a strange and murky affair, is it not? Though I suppose, due to the media-oriented nature of humanity, and how media seems to correlate PTSD and military duty, this is to be expected.

My two cents are as follows: Having at least attempted to join the Army (US), I am a stalwart defender of their actions (more along the lines of fighting and surviving through every war they are deployed on, regardless of significance or need, not the whole kicking puppies off a cliff controversy, that's disrespectable). Vietnam, regardless of how people felt about it back home, was a real and bloody conflict, and their struggles should never be scoffed at. Now, I'm not saying you are scoffing, far from it, in fact. Just my opinion. :)

On a more strained note, my inner grammar Nazi sense is tingling at these posts. Not meant as an insult, just a personal pet peeve



Erlyrisa
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11 Feb 2015, 1:07 am

Mastercraft wrote:
Heh, I find it amusing how this conversation slowly turned from a discussion of the similarities and differences between a disorder that results in an ungodly amount of stress and an ungodly amount of stress resulting in a disorder, to an opinionated discussion of the after-affects of the Vietnam War. Human conversation, even as said by people like us, is a strange and murky affair, is it not? Though I suppose, due to the media-oriented nature of humanity, and how media seems to correlate PTSD and military duty, this is to be expected.

My two cents are as follows: Having at least attempted to join the Army (US), I am a stalwart defender of their actions (more along the lines of fighting and surviving through every war they are deployed on, regardless of significance or need, not the whole kicking puppies off a cliff controversy, that's disrespectable). Vietnam, regardless of how people felt about it back home, was a real and bloody conflict, and their struggles should never be scoffed at. Now, I'm not saying you are scoffing, far from it, in fact. Just my opinion. :)

On a more strained note, my inner grammar Nazi sense is tingling at these posts. Not meant as an insult, just a personal pet peeve


The worst part is, I, ME, PERSONALLY (ONE OF THE F'N HIPPIES) - have NO RIGHT to make comment....and I loathe having to have too. In public I don't... and a certain level of respect has tobe desired of the generation growing up today.

--but when an actor's muse is watching apocolypse now over and over again (to me the Horror part is actually comedic, but too a person who actually knows, I presume that they stop watching the movie 10mins in, and have never even seen that part)

--ie. These two divisions of people in society will NEVER mesh. Not here, not in heaven not in hell. Personally I would never forgive.

The hardest part for our generation (youngins), is watching the Viet Art, and having no perspective of it, to me they were just good action movies (Rambo), but now I see where the profit lies, and it makes me sick. I still watch apocolypse now as a really good comedy.

Jimmy Hendrix was good though.

A similar thing happened again with Iraq - thankfully media and protest didn't push it as far as they did on the first round. I think maybe this time guilt was with the media empire from the start.


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Erlyrisa
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11 Feb 2015, 1:20 am

To bring the topic back.

to me. PTS needs distinction: I would not be applying a disorder to a person that doesn't actually have one.

...and I understand the theoretical math behind human rearing, and the correlation with the result of trauma to an Autistic state. But I have seen people trying to apply PTS to themselves, when they're version of trauma was not getting the credit card debts out of the way, or being excluded from their brunch club.

Either PTS gets called, post whinger disorder, or those that are label as truly PTS are not labeled in the first place: becuase personally, if I were some-one that had gone through real stress, and then lumped into the same drug regime and psychological recovery program as some-one that ie excluded from thier brunch club, then those that are doing the DSM bull should literally shoot themselves.

OR, trade places, and hand thier "Well defined" job over to some-one who actually knows.


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11 Feb 2015, 1:26 am

Erlyrisa wrote:
Vernacular at the time as published by journalism (the other bunch to blame)

Baby Killer. -> This phrase will stick, and we will never forget.
It's easy if you try...DICK.

It was ok to be a protestor at the time...and it made ALOT of money for the journalists of the time. But when the war was over physically, socially it did not stop, and by all technicalities hasn't stopped to this day. Worst war yet.

(While some were at home making free love in the mud, on LSD, others were on LSD die-ing)

A good alternate movie to Apocalypse now, would be to make one that highlights what was happening at home -- oh, yeah is that movie called Forest Gump ( aka Greenie Gump dumbie - at least the chick got what she deserved - can't beleive she got to work as a normal human at the end, she didn't deserve it).

My decree to the nation at the time would have been that Vietvets have the right to shoot any person that opens their mouth too make political peace comments. Quite literally, they have free reign to just slaughter in any manner they so desire. No jail time, no repercussion...actually I would have rewarded for the grandest displays...that way the journalists stay in power. To this day those flower power people are still the ones with the assets living out in comfort spinning and weaving crap - they are the ones that became todays Journalists.

What peaves me off the most is that, again they get away scoot free, as the internet supplies them with nasdaq income, as they sit thier pretending to apply "knowledge" in order to justify thier existence.



Honestly you've lost me, I don't see how going around shooting civilians over their opinion would solve anything...I have PTSD because someone figured it was alright to come into a school and shoot a student, and I am supposed to feel one would be justified in going around shooting hippies or any other group of people who isn't outright causing harm to other people 'for sport', or that it would solve a single damn problem(it wouldn't). That and serial killing is usually looked down upon, I would disagree with the notion of society allowing for certain groups to be targeted to be 'shot for sport' just for disagreeing with whatever status quo is the current for obvious reasons, but perhaps you would prefer a very violent society that allows for that kind of thing....to each their own.

Not sure how a conversation about PTSD went in the direction of talking about groups of people that should be 'shot' because you disagree with their perspective or whatever.


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Erlyrisa
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11 Feb 2015, 2:25 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Erlyrisa wrote:
Vernacular at the time as published by journalism (the other bunch to blame)

Baby Killer. -> This phrase will stick, and we will never forget.
It's easy if you try...DICK.

It was ok to be a protestor at the time...and it made ALOT of money for the journalists of the time. But when the war was over physically, socially it did not stop, and by all technicalities hasn't stopped to this day. Worst war yet.

(While some were at home making free love in the mud, on LSD, others were on LSD die-ing)

A good alternate movie to Apocalypse now, would be to make one that highlights what was happening at home -- oh, yeah is that movie called Forest Gump ( aka Greenie Gump dumbie - at least the chick got what she deserved - can't beleive she got to work as a normal human at the end, she didn't deserve it).

My decree to the nation at the time would have been that Vietvets have the right to shoot any person that opens their mouth too make political peace comments. Quite literally, they have free reign to just slaughter in any manner they so desire. No jail time, no repercussion...actually I would have rewarded for the grandest displays...that way the journalists stay in power. To this day those flower power people are still the ones with the assets living out in comfort spinning and weaving crap - they are the ones that became todays Journalists.

What peaves me off the most is that, again they get away scoot free, as the internet supplies them with nasdaq income, as they sit thier pretending to apply "knowledge" in order to justify thier existence.



Honestly you've lost me, I don't see how going around shooting civilians over their opinion would solve anything...I have PTSD because someone figured it was alright to come into a school and shoot a student, and I am supposed to feel one would be justified in going around shooting hippies or any other group of people who isn't outright causing harm to other people 'for sport', or that it would solve a single damn problem(it wouldn't). That and serial killing is usually looked down upon, I would disagree with the notion of society allowing for certain groups to be targeted to be 'shot for sport' just for disagreeing with whatever status quo is the current for obvious reasons, but perhaps you would prefer a very violent society that allows for that kind of thing....to each their own.

Not sure how a conversation about PTSD went in the direction of talking about groups of people that should be 'shot' because you disagree with their perspective or whatever.



What I am trying to convey is that THEIR IS NO CURE.

I am not going to get over seeing my mother in the bathtub...but I would never associate myself as having a 'disorder' that is the same naming convention as used for someone trying to get over war wounds. (and even that sounds pathetic)

Being female: You would take on stressors much more vividly.

A one off incident in which you are not the main event, I would not classify as PTS. True the images are huanting, associations to particular sounds re-occuring - but this is nothing in comparison to the real thing. The real thing is well and truly debilitating, hence why I doo see an interesting correlation too Autism spectrum.

Accumalitve, Coersive, Commutative, Significant ,etc Stress Disorders : I can slip in adjectives whenever I feel like it too.

The question is --WHY?, is it for my sake? am I really trying to understand the problem that the person is going through?
or...am I just getting my dissertation?

No offence, but computer programmers can reverse engineer the DMS into a self perpetuation entity.


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11 Feb 2015, 3:26 am

Generalisations can go any way. Before I suspected I could have asp I felt somewhat that I didn't have sufficient anxiety to give up my personality, just to fit in and fight for a place on social rock.
I feel they lash out for not tiring myself to dead just to fit in. NTs just need to kling on because outside the rock is an ocean of anxiety.
Also anxiety passes strongly by parenting , the nervous mother sheep will make their lambs fearfull too.
Anxiety has tendency to turn into dominance, the controlling, jealous kind, not the benificial dominance of a charismatic and calm overseeer.