If not for Christianity....

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BS. The suggestion that somehow a belief in a wrathful god prevents the mainstream from committing atrocities I really have to wonder at your cognitive abilities let alone your research ones. Here is a clue, secularism is increasing rapidly yet crime stats are dropping and as to homosexuality when you look at the stats for Europe acceptance correlates well to religious belief. IE those countries with a higher agnostic/atheistic attitude have far more acceptance of homosexuality than the more traditionally religious ones. And as to Good ol rednecks being to afraid of God to go a'lynching

Well, if you read what I stated you might have noted that I stated that it is an extreme example and only applicable to SOME FOLKS. AND YES, IF YOU'VE BEEN AROUND THE BLOCK A FEW TIMES, LIKE I HAVE TO THE TUNE OF CLOSE TO ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE OVER DECADES OF REAL LIFE interaction and not just interwebz land you might have come across folks like this of the REDNECK NATURE TOO.. They are real; it's not just a TV show.

And I was talking about patriarchal land in Russia, not egalitarian European countries.

Those folks ARE BURNING HOMOSEXUALS ALIVE, AND THERE IS EVEN AN EXTREMELY POPULAR VIDEO TO BRING ATTENTION TO THIS GROWING ATROCITY IN SECULAR RUSSIA.



Regardless if religion rules or not, the U.S., overall, is still a patriarchal country.

And not sure what it's like where you live in Australia but over here where I live in the highest assessed patriarchal area of the U.S., IT IS NOT gay friendly, where the church still assesses homosexual behavior, on local radio stations, as demon inspired but never the less, folks around here have the fear of hell fire in 'em. AND there are zero hate crimes against homosexuals, as THAT PART IS NOT ALLOWED IN CHURCH.

IF YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THIS ENVIRONMENT, you cannot possibly understand the full ramifications of it.

It is not something taught in the academic world.

It's common sense stuff dude, not stuff that the scientific method CAN DETERMINE, ALONE.

YOU STILL HAVE MUCH TO LEARN.

Take away the fear of the devil, and it's back to the wild wild west over here.. WHERE I LIVE.. AS long as the populations are large and heterogenous without the kind of social welfare available in the more egalitarian European countries.

And there is science behind that as research shows that religion thrives across the globe where social welfare fails.

That PART is NOT LIKELY to ever change, as long as human beings are walking around with flesh and blood, with emotions and not frigging ZOMBIES.

AND your puny attempts at assessing my cognitive ability are worthless.

Writing has always been my weakness; there are cognitive abilities that I have that you likely cannot imagine.

Like EXPERTISE IN KUNG FU STYLE MARTIAL ARTS, DANCE, AND POWER LIFTING 930 LBS WITH MY LEGS NOW.

IT AIN'T STUFF YOU CAN LEARN IN A BOOK FRIEND, AND I'VE NEVER HAD A LESSON; it's my innate instinctual creation.

AND IT IS real life INTELLIGENCE that truly does get one ahead in life where the flesh and blood hits the REAL HIGHWAYS OF LIFE.

When people in real life CALL YOU SUPERMAN, come back and assess my cognitive abilities in REAL LIFE, ON THE frigging Interwebz.

You don't even have a face here.

Just emotionless words, and facts here and there.

I'm NOT IMPRESSED.

If not for Christianity, SOME PEOPLE would have absolutely NOTHING TO SAY.

Not that they have much to say right now ...

You do realize that the crusades were because Christians were sick of Muslim tribes killing and attacking them, right? :/

Nice use of the NEW literary Internet device of CAPS.

I'm impressed..

Is that your only take on it? Why were they attacking Christians?

The crusades were mostly about killing people and looting their property in the name of God.In other words, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

By the way, The Albigensian, or Cathar Crusade (1209–1229), was a 20-year military campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, in the south of France. Contemporary sources give estimates of the number of dead in just one town of between 15,000 and 20,000 men, women, and children - Cathars and Catholics alike!

Considering you are asking about a change that started more then 1500 years ago in this hypothetical scenario only very broad generalizations can be made. And there is the risk that it would turn into nothing more then wish full thinking. But lets try.



Egalitarian thinking would not be a strong force in society or political decision making. This because it is basically nothing more then the secularization of the Christian concept that all men are created equal in the eyes of God. And following the statement of Carl Schmitt that all political ideologies are secularized theologies, certain streams of political thinking might have never come into existence. Liberalism and Marxism for example.



Would be nothing more then mere speculation.



History would be seen as cyclical/spherical instead of the linear concept that in inert to Christianity and its secular off shoots. For the rest (neo)Platonism would most likely be a strong force in philosophical thinking (also had a strong influence on early Catholic thinking), instead of Thomism we might have a different school of thought based on the philosophy of Aristotle and instead of Christian Stoicism we would have Pagan Stoicism.



Only in the sense that Islam would never have come into existence.



Probably not, those Gods might have been incorporated in to the official state Pantheon and their cults become part of the state cult, but they would not replace it. Is possible of course, but I think it is unlikely.



Highly unlikely. Secularism probably has its root in the split between temporal and spiritual leadership that existed in Catholic Europe. The concept of the two swords and the conflict between the emperors and the popes over who has supreme authority. Lost by both and with growing secularism as the outcome.



More likely. We could also see the idea that different Gods of the different pantheons might be emanations of more abstract Divine principles.



Or not. Campaigns of conquest happened before Christianity and will happen after its disappearance.



Presuming the Roman Empire still existed, it could just as well that some ambitious general with his legions that overthrew the Aztec empire with the help of the laters subjects instead of the Spanish Conquistadors.



Speculation.



More precisely the crusades where first called because the emperor of Byzantine Empire had asked the pope to help to provide military support to launch a counteroffensive against the caliphate.

Just going on the "quality" of the thoughtlessly vainglorious assertions by those who consider themselves "evolutionarily superior" I suggest we are rapidly heading for a society where philosophy (science) does not exist. Look around you... there are already large sections of society that have been "liberated" from right reason and for whom truth and virtue are merely matters of temporary convenience.

Innocent III had delusions of grandeur.....nothing to do with Christian precepts....everything to do with secular human failings.

I assume that you are referring to a popish fellow. Alexander VI is usually the rascal of choice.

Human failings do not make or break truth or virtue.

From the day that european ships could cross the ocean the invading of the americas was unavoidable. Unless a united Europe would decide to isolate itself and let decline take it's toll. (Like China did.)


With speculation on 2000 years of history, it's hard to say...


The Church is what preserved science and ancient texts as the Roman Empire collapsed. For long the Church is also what financed the sciences. You don't need monotheism to prevent progress anyway, like the chinesse showed. èthis is contrary to your first point too.


The proponents of such things would have found other arguments; they were all things done way before christianity and still made during the Roman Empire time. It was even considered good and normal.


Peoples still will be certain to be right.

Great post, especially that bit in bold.

It’s very doubtful that we would be anymore advanced at all. The western Roman empire would still have fallen and Europe would still have been dominated by barbarians—vandals, goths, etc. And without the Roman Catholic Church, most Roman/Classical “know how” would have been COMPLETELY LOST. Just imagine, the Dark Ages WITHOUT a Renaissance or an Enlightenment because there’s no Church there to preserve the works of Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Polybius, Archimedes, to be rediscovered.

If you are familiar with the work of Oswald Spengler, then you would know that the later is unlikely.



Here we come on the area of speculation. On the one hand, yes lot of these works (in Western Europe) where preserved in monasteries. At the other side of the issue Christian emperors did close the philosophical schools. So without Christianity those might still survive and have received patronage from the new rulers and in that way we could still have something like the Carolingian Renaissance. Also a lot was also persevered in the Byzantine Empire.

However to make a comment on the word progress that is being used by some here. They way they use it (not just here, but even more so in other topics) is fundamentally influenced by secularized forms of Christian thought. This also why I said certain schools of political thought like liberalism and Marxism would never have come in to existence.

pls define 'Ameen'......i am unfamiliar with it

what sections "that have been 'liberated'..." are you referring to....pls name them