Is fifty shades of grey abuse?
24 Feb 2015, 3:04 pm
It is an incredibly poor depiction of a BDSM relationship. I understand that it is meant to be fantasy, but there are such things as healthy BDSM practices, and what Christian and Anastasia engage in are NOT healthy BDSM practices. If Christian Grey were a real person doing all of those things, he most likely would end up spending a couple of decades in prison before facing civil commitment as a Level III Sex Offender. And rightfully so, since he clearly has the bare minimal conceptual grasp of the boundaries of others as long as his sexual appetites are concerned.
12 Apr 2015, 9:20 am
MisterXenos wrote:
While there's no doubt that the books and the movies are absolutely terrible and full of outright abuse, I would question whether or not it is directly contributing to the abuse of women in real life.
I think that the argument against it is that it reinforces the belief that abusive behaviour can be excused if the man is nice sometimes and is good looking, rather than the book itself acutally causing abuse. Well, that's my irk with it anyway.
Here's a good summary by Jenny Trout.
50 Shades and Abusive Relationships
Another 50 Shades Domestic Violence PSA. Now with added author breakdown.
12 Apr 2015, 9:47 am
I think the income level of Christian Grey is a factor. It's tolerated because he's exceedingly wealthy. If the book took in a trailer park down south, he'd be in jail for life.
Plus Anastasia is very unhealthily insecure, and seriously co-dependent on Christian.
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14 Apr 2015, 3:20 pm
I tried reading the book and couldn't get halfway through it. It was the biggest piece of crap I've ever read. No, I have not seen the movie and have no intention to.
Yes, the book does depict an abusive relationship, but in a poorly written way.
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15 Apr 2015, 1:25 am
Janissy wrote:
If a man behaved that way in real life it would be creepy and stalking.
Romantic movies routinely have the man do things that would be socially or legally unaceptable in real life.* Action movies do a similar thing by portraying a hero who is allowed to cause catastrophic collatoral damage with no consequences.
It's a movie thing. Movies operate in a parallel universe where consequences work differently. Every man who has seen a romantic movie since the genre was invented has probably thought "huh? I thought women hated that?" about some scene. Fantasy operates in a different psychological realm and can't be safely mapped onto real life.
My personal favorite that shows up in romance scenes is the million candle scene. Maybe 50 Shades had this too? It's the scene where the characters make out against a backdrop of candles burning on every single flat surface. The fantasy part of me thinks that is awesome. The reality part of me knows that would lead to dying in a fire. There probably are people who started fires because they thought this fantasy scene was ok to act out in reality.
*This isn't unique to the male romantic lead, it's just that men are the pursuers in most romantic movies. But in movies where women are the pursuers, they also do things that would be creepy and sometimes illegal.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/32565-11-depressing-romcom-truths-that-will-destroy-your-belief-in-true-love
Despite the link's title, my belief in true love is not destroyed. People truly love each other all the time and without ever acting as awful as movie characters. But the movies are fun to watch (sometimes).
Romantic movies routinely have the man do things that would be socially or legally unaceptable in real life.* Action movies do a similar thing by portraying a hero who is allowed to cause catastrophic collatoral damage with no consequences.
It's a movie thing. Movies operate in a parallel universe where consequences work differently. Every man who has seen a romantic movie since the genre was invented has probably thought "huh? I thought women hated that?" about some scene. Fantasy operates in a different psychological realm and can't be safely mapped onto real life.
My personal favorite that shows up in romance scenes is the million candle scene. Maybe 50 Shades had this too? It's the scene where the characters make out against a backdrop of candles burning on every single flat surface. The fantasy part of me thinks that is awesome. The reality part of me knows that would lead to dying in a fire. There probably are people who started fires because they thought this fantasy scene was ok to act out in reality.
*This isn't unique to the male romantic lead, it's just that men are the pursuers in most romantic movies. But in movies where women are the pursuers, they also do things that would be creepy and sometimes illegal.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/32565-11-depressing-romcom-truths-that-will-destroy-your-belief-in-true-love
Quote:
Think Sleepless in Seattle is romantic? Think again, because Meg Ryan’s character is actually a horrible person. She tells her fiancé (who she JUST dumped during a romantic date on Valentine’s Day) that she can’t wait to meet a random guy she’s fallen in love with… and never spoken to. It’s the worst.
Quote:
While You Were Sleeping....Sandra Bullock’s character is not adorable. She’s a stalker. This family shouldn’t welcome her with open arms. They should immediately get a restraining order.
Despite the link's title, my belief in true love is not destroyed. People truly love each other all the time and without ever acting as awful as movie characters. But the movies are fun to watch (sometimes).
Why this movie/book got that popular among women? Why the equivalent movies you pointed didn't become popular among men?
Why being the submissive is way more common among women in the BDSM communities?
I don't think it's simply a movie thing, there's something darker and deeper in tendency.
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15 Apr 2015, 2:13 am
KagamineLen wrote:
It is an incredibly poor depiction of a BDSM relationship. I understand that it is meant to be fantasy, but there are such things as healthy BDSM practices, and what Christian and Anastasia engage in are NOT healthy BDSM practices. If Christian Grey were a real person doing all of those things, he most likely would end up spending a couple of decades in prison before facing civil commitment as a Level III Sex Offender. And rightfully so, since he clearly has the bare minimal conceptual grasp of the boundaries of others as long as his sexual appetites are concerned.
No, no it is not.
The whole concept of BDSM 'relationship' is based on inflicting pain and humiliation to get 'pleasure', on a concept of "Master/Daddy/Mistress" and "slave/pet"- in most of the cases you see there, the slave is often female (way more common than seeing a male sub), the master is either a "Dom" male (often the case for straight couples there) or a Dom female.
From what I have seen in online BDSM communities (I went there no long time ago to explore what the f- is that all about without any opinion about it before that, ie. fetlife) what I found out that the book isn't really an understated presentation as anti-50Shades pro-BDSM claim to be (like you most probably). There you would see a lot of 'subs' (often females) who would talk about their "masters" and they would mention things like how they would get punished if they ever get caught talking with someone else, or they would ask me to 'take permission' from master/mistress just so I can speak to them and things like that.
And in fact, there were a LOT of people there who state that 50 Shades as a favourite book on their profiles, claiming it is not popular among them or that it is hated by most there is false, It is as popular as in the general population, if not more.
Abuse whether it is mutually consent or not (sometimes through conditioning, human history has a lot of examples of slavery conditioning, making the slaves to be convinced by their slavery life, yet that doesn't make it right).
, is certainly a very very common practice among BDSM practitioners - and they often get so furious (and their furious reactions are often extreme, no wonder) when a non-BDSM points at this things and they would go on a rampage how "misunderstood"they are and how we non-BDSM are judgemental and ignorant since we have never 'tried it' in order to understand what it really entails, and sometimes they accuse us of being conservative Christians (ie. i am atheist), and they would go on about the 'fine line' between s**t this and s**t that, and the 'safe word'...bla bla.
My final opinion on this community: it is a cesspool, an abuse and rape culture. On this, I totally agree with the mainstream feminist opinion on the matter. Feminists often say it is used for legitimization of abuse, often abuse of women, and I agree, and while male subs exist there they are often described as 'sissy' a word associated to effemination.
Oh, I expect some rampage now and be called how ignorant and unfairly judgemental I am about BDSM, save your keystrokes, I won't read you.
16 Apr 2015, 5:41 pm
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
KagamineLen wrote:
It is an incredibly poor depiction of a BDSM relationship. I understand that it is meant to be fantasy, but there are such things as healthy BDSM practices, and what Christian and Anastasia engage in are NOT healthy BDSM practices. If Christian Grey were a real person doing all of those things, he most likely would end up spending a couple of decades in prison before facing civil commitment as a Level III Sex Offender. And rightfully so, since he clearly has the bare minimal conceptual grasp of the boundaries of others as long as his sexual appetites are concerned.
No, no it is not.
The whole concept of BDSM 'relationship' is based on inflicting pain and humiliation to get 'pleasure', on a concept of "Master/Daddy/Mistress" and "slave/pet"- in most of the cases you see there, the slave is often female (way more common than seeing a male sub), the master is either a "Dom" male (often the case for straight couples there) or a Dom female.
From what I have seen in online BDSM communities (I went there no long time ago to explore what the f- is that all about without any opinion about it before that, ie. fetlife) what I found out that the book isn't really an understated presentation as anti-50Shades pro-BDSM claim to be (like you most probably). There you would see a lot of 'subs' (often females) who would talk about their "masters" and they would mention things like how they would get punished if they ever get caught talking with someone else, or they would ask me to 'take permission' from master/mistress just so I can speak to them and things like that.
And in fact, there were a LOT of people there who state that 50 Shades as a favourite book on their profiles, claiming it is not popular among them or that it is hated by most there is false, It is as popular as in the general population, if not more.
Abuse whether it is mutually consent or not (sometimes through conditioning, human history has a lot of examples of slavery conditioning, making the slaves to be convinced by their slavery life, yet that doesn't make it right).
, is certainly a very very common practice among BDSM practitioners - and they often get so furious (and their furious reactions are often extreme, no wonder) when a non-BDSM points at this things and they would go on a rampage how "misunderstood"they are and how we non-BDSM are judgemental and ignorant since we have never 'tried it' in order to understand what it really entails, and sometimes they accuse us of being conservative Christians (ie. i am atheist), and they would go on about the 'fine line' between s**t this and s**t that, and the 'safe word'...bla bla.
My final opinion on this community: it is a cesspool, an abuse and rape culture. On this, I totally agree with the mainstream feminist opinion on the matter. Feminists often say it is used for legitimization of abuse, often abuse of women, and I agree, and while male subs exist there they are often described as 'sissy' a word associated to effemination.
Oh, I expect some rampage now and be called how ignorant and unfairly judgemental I am about BDSM, save your keystrokes, I won't read you.
Alright, but I will say that during my days as a submissive in a BDSM sexual relationship, I actually had more control over the master than what he had over me. I had solid boundaries, I trusted he would not cross them, he never crossed them, and I never crossed his boundaries either. Believe it or not, relationships like that can happen.
19 Apr 2015, 1:49 am
I am still reading the book and what got me to read it was hearing all the criticism about it so I had to read it to see. I am just too curious to put it down. I haven't seen the movie yet but too bad they didn't film it in my area where the book took place. It took place in three different cities, Vancouver, WA, Portland and Seattle. I haven't read the other two yet. Also the author is British so I wonder how she knew our area well or had she been here before or did she use Google maps and the internet?
I think this book is fantasy because I have read plenty of kinky stories on my Nook and they are always like this. I am just surprised it's even been published and sold in regular book stores. To the outside world it will look like abuse.
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20 Apr 2015, 6:18 am
KagamineLen wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
KagamineLen wrote:
It is an incredibly poor depiction of a BDSM relationship. I understand that it is meant to be fantasy, but there are such things as healthy BDSM practices, and what Christian and Anastasia engage in are NOT healthy BDSM practices. If Christian Grey were a real person doing all of those things, he most likely would end up spending a couple of decades in prison before facing civil commitment as a Level III Sex Offender. And rightfully so, since he clearly has the bare minimal conceptual grasp of the boundaries of others as long as his sexual appetites are concerned.
No, no it is not.
The whole concept of BDSM 'relationship' is based on inflicting pain and humiliation to get 'pleasure', on a concept of "Master/Daddy/Mistress" and "slave/pet"- in most of the cases you see there, the slave is often female (way more common than seeing a male sub), the master is either a "Dom" male (often the case for straight couples there) or a Dom female.
From what I have seen in online BDSM communities (I went there no long time ago to explore what the f- is that all about without any opinion about it before that, ie. fetlife) what I found out that the book isn't really an understated presentation as anti-50Shades pro-BDSM claim to be (like you most probably). There you would see a lot of 'subs' (often females) who would talk about their "masters" and they would mention things like how they would get punished if they ever get caught talking with someone else, or they would ask me to 'take permission' from master/mistress just so I can speak to them and things like that.
And in fact, there were a LOT of people there who state that 50 Shades as a favourite book on their profiles, claiming it is not popular among them or that it is hated by most there is false, It is as popular as in the general population, if not more.
Abuse whether it is mutually consent or not (sometimes through conditioning, human history has a lot of examples of slavery conditioning, making the slaves to be convinced by their slavery life, yet that doesn't make it right).
, is certainly a very very common practice among BDSM practitioners - and they often get so furious (and their furious reactions are often extreme, no wonder) when a non-BDSM points at this things and they would go on a rampage how "misunderstood"they are and how we non-BDSM are judgemental and ignorant since we have never 'tried it' in order to understand what it really entails, and sometimes they accuse us of being conservative Christians (ie. i am atheist), and they would go on about the 'fine line' between s**t this and s**t that, and the 'safe word'...bla bla.
My final opinion on this community: it is a cesspool, an abuse and rape culture. On this, I totally agree with the mainstream feminist opinion on the matter. Feminists often say it is used for legitimization of abuse, often abuse of women, and I agree, and while male subs exist there they are often described as 'sissy' a word associated to effemination.
Oh, I expect some rampage now and be called how ignorant and unfairly judgemental I am about BDSM, save your keystrokes, I won't read you.
Alright, but I will say that during my days as a submissive in a BDSM sexual relationship, I actually had more control over the master than what he had over me.
Why do you call him master then? What do you call yourself? the equal mistress?
20 Apr 2015, 10:25 am
Yes, of course it's abuse.
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20 Apr 2015, 3:44 pm
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Why do you call him master then? What do you call yourself? the equal mistress?
I only called him "master" in the bedroom. He got pleasure catering to my fantasies. I came up with the scenarios that we acted out, and he enjoyed it as much as I did. Outside of the bedroom, it was a normal and equal relationship. Kinky sexuality like that should remain in the bedroom, and it really is creepy when people take it to the extent of using it to shape their entire lives. There's a time and a place for these things.
In any case, this part of the conversation probably should be in the "Mature Discussion" section.
Just one more thing - "Mistress", huh? I'm a dude, and I certainly was never anyone's "sissy".
