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Fnord
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24 Feb 2015, 7:19 pm

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
... Black Holes are places in the Universe where much of the laws of physics break down...
Someone once said, "Black holes are places in the universe where God divided by zero."

That's how I explain it to the fundies.


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Humanaut
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24 Feb 2015, 7:26 pm

Hawking could be onto something. If the accumulation of mass doesn't exceed loss due to radiation, then the so-called black holes are nothing more than bidirectional axial radiators.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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24 Feb 2015, 8:07 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Hawking could be onto something. If the accumulation of mass doesn't exceed loss due to radiation, then the so-called black holes are nothing more than bidirectional axial radiators.



Ahhh yes. This argument is purely theoretical, and more importantly Hawking is trying to reconcile General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics. But there are some good reasons why Hawking is wrong. But the recent observations of Sagittarius A* robustly confirm the detection of Schwarzschild radius structures in Sagittarius A*. These are critical pieces of evidence, combined with the fact that Sagittarius A* has a radiation magnitude of 0.1% of its Eddington luminosity, that this object does indeed have an event horizon and is a black hole.



Jono
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24 Feb 2015, 8:41 pm

It seems rather strange to deny that black holes exist, given that astronomers have found ample observational evidence that certain known objects are real black holes. However, it may be the case that some predictions of general relativity about black holes may not actually be correct, given that the theory is expected to break down in regimes where quantum mechanics is also expected to play a major part. Steven Hawking did a calculation in the 1970's that applies quantum field theory with a black hole background that shows that black holes ought to emit thermal radiation and thus slowly evaporate as a result. This is what we now know as Hawking Radiation. Unfortunately, this also lead to what we now call the "information loss paradox" where quantum information entering into the black hole becomes irretrievably lost and doesn't appear to be recovered even after the black hole eventually vanishes and this appears to contradict one of the most basic principles of quantum mechanics. More recent results suggest that a fully quantum mechanical (quantum gravity) treatment of the problem would show that the quantum information of the matter falling into the black hole is probably conserved in the radiation coming out.

What we normally think of as a black hole is a region of space inside a radius called the event horizon. According to general relativity, the event horizon is a boundary beyond which, space-time is so distorted and escape velocity is so high, that even light cannot escape from it. However, it is now expected that a full quantum treatment of black holes would make the event horizon "fuzzy" and not well defined at the quantum level, though it still looks like an event horizon in the classical limit. This means that some matter falling into the black hole, close to where the event horizon appears to be, can and actually does come back out of the black hole in contradiction to the classical prediction of general relativity that nothing falling into a black hole can come back out. When it comes out of the black hole, it may be in the form of radiation and quantum information may be really scrambled but the point is that a quantum treatment of black holes would suggest that everything going into a "real" black hole does eventually come back out unlike the prediction of general relativity that nothing can escape a black hole. I've been seeing people quoting Steven Hawking as recently saying that black holes don't exist but he's not saying that there are no real black holes. What he's actually saying is what I've just said now, that "real" black holes are not black holes as we normally think of them because matter falling into them eventually does come back out, though it may take a long time.



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24 Feb 2015, 9:05 pm

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Sagittarius A* has a radiation magnitude of 0.1% of its Eddington luminosity...

Based on an assumption of evenly distributed radiation?



trollcatman
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25 Feb 2015, 12:01 am

0_equals_true wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Black holes are the predicted end point in the lives of certain massive stars according to the modern theory of stellar evolution.

Therefore finding an actual black hole would seem to confirm that theory.

But an evolution-denier could just claim that God could have just made black holes as is. Furnished the cosmos with a few ready made black holes when he constructed the universe as-is 6 thousand years ago.


Biological evolution is not the same as evolution of stars. In fact I'm not even sure 'evolution' is the right term there. More like life cycle.

Who cares what evolution deniers say?


I do, because they infect other people with whatever f****d up their brain. They create doubt and controversy when there is none.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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25 Feb 2015, 2:48 am

Humanaut wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Sagittarius A* has a radiation magnitude of 0.1% of its Eddington luminosity...

Based on an assumption of evenly distributed radiation?


No. Eddington luminosity does not assume an even distribution of radiation emission across the electromagnetic spectrum. This article explains it in more detail.



B19
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25 Feb 2015, 3:08 am

Fnord wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Do black holes violate theology in some way? Fundies/YECs seem to dislike black holes for some reason, but I am not clear as to why they dislike them.
It has much to do with the term "Stellar Evolution". A black hole is the final stage in evolution of a massive star. Then there is also the idea that anything that falls into a black hole is permanently lost, body and soul.

Then there is this anonymous posting (corrected for errors in grammar, punctuation, and spelling):

Quote:
These black holes only work on FAITHLESS PEDOPHILES SCIENTISTS who worship Satan in an UNHOLY SEARCH to find a way to defy God's gift to each one of us and find a new planet to live in. So when God became aware of how evil these INNOCENCE-RAPING SCIENTISTS, God created black holes to banish them and literally RIP THEIR DEMON SOULS APART. However, there are some myths about black holes that demon scientist's have spread as fact, FACTS THAT DIDN'T COME FOR GOD! As if those can possibly exist.


1) Black holes supposedly created the universe by becoming quasars and expelling gas throughout the universe and then the gas became planets over billions of years.

WRONG. For one thing GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE in six of the holiest days of all time, and the EARTH IS FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OLD.


2) Black holes exist in all places at all times randomly. According to Stephen Hawking (who is only still alive because SATANIC DOCTORS REVIVED HIM with witch magic after GOD STRUCK HIM DOWN), black holes appear around and in us at all times, and that we are penetrated and in contact with black holes every day.

WRONG. If black holes are ever-expanding than they would take us over.
Obviously, this person has no knowledge or understanding of the Big Bang Theory, of Stephen Hawking's teachings, or of modern medical science. He even makes up his own 'gospel' in the first paragraph.

Typical Fundie ... :roll:


Fnord this is a record, I have agreed with you on two different topics in one day! I hope this is not too habit-forming!! I'm sorry NaturalPlastic that for a moment I thought you had written this nonsense, then realised that it was posted anonymously somewhere. My apologies!

This hate-denialist-vomit (that Fnord quoted from the anonymous poster, possibly a troll) is completely ludicrous, and if it was posted by a non-troll, then he or she belongs back in the dark ages before the enlightenment, when people had no access to any other knowledge but what religious powers imposed on them, to keep them compliant, primitive, ignorant and just plain stupid.



Humanaut
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25 Feb 2015, 5:32 am

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Eddington luminosity does not assume an even distribution of radiation emission across the electromagnetic spectrum.

I was thinking of directional distribution.



Jono
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25 Feb 2015, 9:05 am

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Sagittarius A* has a radiation magnitude of 0.1% of its Eddington luminosity...

Based on an assumption of evenly distributed radiation?


No. Eddington luminosity does not assume an even distribution of radiation emission across the electromagnetic spectrum. This article explains it in more detail.


That is radiation from matter falling into a black hole though, it's not coming from inside the black hole, it's from the accretion disk and particles outside the event horizon and radiation emitted from particles like electrons accelerating around the black hole due to extreme gravity and tidal forces. Detecting accretion disks and radiation like that is one of the ways astronomers try to detect and identify black holes. This kind of radiation has nothing to do with Hawking radiation, which is expected to be quite weak in comparison, nor does it have anything do with whether classical black holes exist or not.



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25 Feb 2015, 12:29 pm

Jono wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Sagittarius A* has a radiation magnitude of 0.1% of its Eddington luminosity...

Based on an assumption of evenly distributed radiation?


No. Eddington luminosity does not assume an even distribution of radiation emission across the electromagnetic spectrum. This article explains it in more detail.


That is radiation from matter falling into a black hole though, it's not coming from inside the black hole, it's from the accretion disk and particles outside the event horizon and radiation emitted from particles like electrons accelerating around the black hole due to extreme gravity and tidal forces. Detecting accretion disks and radiation like that is one of the ways astronomers try to detect and identify black holes. This kind of radiation has nothing to do with Hawking radiation, which is expected to be quite weak in comparison, nor does it have anything do with whether classical black holes exist or not.



Yes Jono, I'm aware of this and I think we're in agreement here. What I was explaining to Humanaut is that matter spiraling towards a massive, compact object in the form of an accretion disk is not sufficient to indicate the presence of a black hole. Because there are other objects, notably neutron stars/pulsars/magnetars which can produce this effect but do not have an event horizon.

And from what I've read, when the infalling matter from an accretion disk strikes the surface of a neutron star it produces intense bursts of X-rays that exceed the Eddington luminosity. But what you have around Sagittarius A* and other galactic nuclei(like M87 in particular) is radiatively inefficient accretion flow, where the emission of electromagnetic radiation is << 1% of the Eddington limit for an object of its size and mass. THAT is how astronomers identify black holes and distinguish them from neutron stars.



Humanaut
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25 Feb 2015, 12:57 pm

The loss due to radiation could still be greater than the accumulation of mass.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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25 Feb 2015, 10:47 pm

Humanaut wrote:
The loss due to radiation could still be greater than the accumulation of mass.



Well it could, but is there any evidence that it is so for Sagittarius A* in particular? Because such things can be measured. Sagittarius A* was very active a few years ago as a star(or two?) wandered in and was gobbled up which produced a flaring of X-ray emissions.



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26 Feb 2015, 7:52 am

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
The loss due to radiation could still be greater than the accumulation of mass.
Well it could, but is there any evidence that it is so for Sagittarius A* in particular?

I don't think so.

Quote:
Because such things can be measured.

For the region, perhaps, but probably not for the alleged object, and even if they found the loss due to radiation to be less than the accumulation it wouldn't imply a black hole.

Quote:
Sagittarius A* was very active a few years ago as a star(or two?) wandered in and was gobbled up which produced a flaring of X-ray emissions.

How do we know it was a star? How do we even know it's an object? For all we know the centre of the galaxy could just be a fluid junction where the accretion inflow is converted to radiation keeping the gravitational pull < c. It could be something else, including a black hole in the traditional sense. We don't know. Our interpretation of the phenomenon depends on fundamental cosmological presumptions.

A recently discovered structure raises even more questions:



Jono
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26 Feb 2015, 9:48 am

Humanaut wrote:
How do we know it was a star? How do we even know it's an object? For all we know the centre of the galaxy could just be a fluid junction where the accretion inflow is converted to radiation keeping the gravitational pull < c. It could be something else, including a black hole in the traditional sense. We don't know. Our interpretation of the phenomenon depends on fundamental cosmological presumptions.


While a black holes can be the end product when a massive star collapses, the super-massive black holes in the centre of galaxies were not originally stars. They were originally large amounts amounts of helium and hydrogen gas that collapsed to form a black hole in the early universe in the initial formation of the galaxy.



Humanaut
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26 Feb 2015, 12:02 pm

Jono wrote:
While a black holes can be the end product when a massive star collapses, the super-massive black holes in the centre of galaxies were not originally stars. They were originally large amounts amounts of helium and hydrogen gas that collapsed to form a black hole in the early universe in the initial formation of the galaxy.

That is one possible explanation.