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beneficii
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25 Feb 2015, 8:45 pm

A male cross-dressing serial killer who drinks the blood of his female victims because he thinks that will transform him into a woman:

http://panachereport.com/channels/Music ... Killer.htm

People like that sickened me when it came to my own transsexualism. I had cross-gender feelings as early as 6, but knew I had to keep them secret. A lot during elementary school I was called gay and I wondered if I was gay, but then I noted, No, this is different. I was in special ed for nearly all of elementary and middle school. I was disastrously mainstreamed in 8th grade, but ended up in the hospital. After that my thinking became funny, and by June 1998 when I was 14 I believe I was the male villain of Final Fantasy VII, Sephiroth. I acted on my delusions the following month, even as I was working to go back to a normal school, and got hospitalized for 6 months.

I saw the original Ace Ventura while in the hospital and found a character who had been mentally ill and was an NFL kicker who changed his appearance to that of a woman in order to infiltrate a police force as part of a plan to get back at Dan Marino of the Miami Dolphins because when the man was kicker, Marino did something wrong with the football or something, causing him to miss a game-winning field goal or something. That colored my perception of transsexuals and I find such men as described in the article disgusting.

I associated transsexualism with severe mental illness and vowed to put both behind me. I made a remarkable recovery, but the transsexualism would not go away. Unfortunately, transition would be challenging, especially in this country where transition-related care is not typically covered, and avoiding stress was the big thing keeping me from slipping back into mental illness. I transitioned to avoid further masculinization, but the lack of social support (social functioning was always weak) and economic support made things difficult. My doctor sees now some of the same concerning symptoms that preceded my psychotic episode at age 14.

I hate my genitals in their current configuration and since elementary school have wanted to get rid of them. I wear mostly androgynous clothing, but will occasionally wear something more feminine, generally for formal situations. But I never ever become a predator like that mentioned in the article when I wear feminine clothes.

I'm not a predator; the association, however, is troubling.


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Orangez
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25 Feb 2015, 9:44 pm

I do find it quite disturbing that we humour people with gender identity issues saying their beliefs is right. When in reality if you are man you can never become a women and vice versa. For example, if I believed myself to be a tree no one would help me turn myself into a tree, however, for people who have gender identity issue we let it be when it is obviously a sign of a serious mental health issue.



thomas81
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25 Feb 2015, 10:48 pm

Orangez wrote:
I do find it quite disturbing that we humour people with gender identity issues saying their beliefs is right. When in reality if you are man you can never become a women and vice versa. For example, if I believed myself to be a tree no one would help me turn myself into a tree, however, for people who have gender identity issue we let it be when it is obviously a sign of a serious mental health issue.


If you find that disturbing, I find it far more disturbing that there are people who would make such a ridiculous analogy. First of all, there isn't that great a deal seperating men and women biologically other than the immediate and obvious peripheral factors. Certainly not a difference analogous to the gargantuan difference between animal and plant life. For example, the reason men have nipples (a body part that fulfills a female function) is the presence of the X chromosome in all humans. Biological gender isn't determined until quite far along the gestation process. Transexualism also happens naturally, in species of frogs and butterflies. Is it that inconceivable it manifests in mammals if even at a purely neurological level?

Perhaps more importantly however you have to realise that 'gender' cannot be defined in purely biological terms but also in terms of a neurological component. There is increasing scientific credence that male and female brains can manifest irrespective of the biological gender of the body with different degrees of gender identification in between. This is not something that can be reconciled through counselling and verbal therapy. In extreme cases of gender dysphoria the only solution is surgical.

To a person that is 100 percent cisgendered it is probably harder for them to understand why this is more than a mere mental health issue. I regard transexualism as a neurological condition with similar causes and grounding as autism, if anything, and it is only made an affliction by the purveyance of backward and ignorant social attitudes that reinforces the stigma against it.

Actually now that I think about it, a disproportionate number of transgendered people I know also have autism. I've long suspected that transgenderism is an ASD comorbid.


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26 Feb 2015, 12:52 am

Orangez wrote:
I do find it quite disturbing that we humour people with gender identity issues saying their beliefs is right. When in reality if you are man you can never become a women and vice versa. For example, if I believed myself to be a tree no one would help me turn myself into a tree, however, for people who have gender identity issue we let it be when it is obviously a sign of a serious mental health issue.

Man/Tree = different species, not even an animal/animal distinction
Man/Woman = different expressions of the same species

People can be born physically hermaphrodite. Why not neurologically? Why not neurologically different gender?

In the end, if it results in a transformation to happy and functional... why is it disturbing?

What is disturbing to me is how blinkered ignorance still thrives in this enlightened age.


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ominous
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26 Feb 2015, 1:12 am

Oh beneficii, this makes me feel sad for you. Just because one TS/TG person did something horrible doesn't mean you have to connect to it or be an apologist for TS/TG people. You don't have to do that or feel that anymore than an autistic would have to be an apologist for all autistics if one of us did something horrible, or anymore than a Muslim should have to be an apologist for all Muslims if one Muslim did something horrible.

None of us are guilty by association. I'm sorry you feel burdened by this.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Feb 2015, 1:28 am

I know how you feel because I am someone who likes my own company and prefers being on my own a lot and that's the kind of personality the media likes to target and call psychologically unsound, "quiet loners" they call us. Every time someone goes on a shooting spree for instance, they don't say, it's some angry person with guns, they say, "quiet loner goes on rampage." They try to make it sound like everyone who is quiet without a lot of human contact is going to do the same thing. It's like, I have no interest in guns so how could I go on a shooting spree? There should be more explanation given but the reason they pick out the "quiet loner" characteristics is most people are married, have a lot of friends, are loud and often obnoxious and they want to make it sound like that type could never be guilty of any violence when, in fact, that is the type of person who is most likely to become violent since they are the majority. Anyone can be prone to violence, is what I am saying, not just specific types.



Orangez
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26 Feb 2015, 3:28 am

Narrator wrote:
Orangez wrote:
I do find it quite disturbing that we humour people with gender identity issues saying their beliefs is right. When in reality if you are man you can never become a women and vice versa. For example, if I believed myself to be a tree no one would help me turn myself into a tree, however, for people who have gender identity issue we let it be when it is obviously a sign of a serious mental health issue.

Man/Tree = different species, not even an animal/animal distinction
Man/Woman = different expressions of the same species

People can be born physically hermaphrodite. Why not neurologically? Why not neurologically different gender?

In the end, if it results in a transformation to happy and functional... why is it disturbing?

What is disturbing to me is how blinkered ignorance still thrives in this enlightened age.


I find sex-reassignment surgery disturbing as it is not a solution to the problem. Even with sex-reassignment surgery suicide rates are higher the normal population. Also, I am worried about the crazy cult around gender issue as it could mislead people who are truly facing a dark time in their life.



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26 Feb 2015, 6:59 am

Orangez wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Orangez wrote:
I do find it quite disturbing that we humour people with gender identity issues saying their beliefs is right. When in reality if you are man you can never become a women and vice versa. For example, if I believed myself to be a tree no one would help me turn myself into a tree, however, for people who have gender identity issue we let it be when it is obviously a sign of a serious mental health issue.

Man/Tree = different species, not even an animal/animal distinction
Man/Woman = different expressions of the same species

People can be born physically hermaphrodite. Why not neurologically? Why not neurologically different gender?

In the end, if it results in a transformation to happy and functional... why is it disturbing?

What is disturbing to me is how blinkered ignorance still thrives in this enlightened age.


I find sex-reassignment surgery disturbing as it is not a solution to the problem. Even with sex-reassignment surgery suicide rates are higher the normal population. Also, I am worried about the crazy cult around gender issue as it could mislead people who are truly facing a dark time in their life.


So what is your solution then?
And this is speculation on my part: maybe the suicide rate is still higher because trans people face discrimination even after surgery. If this is the case then the problem lies with bigots in society, not with the patient.



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26 Feb 2015, 7:17 am

No, people murder themselves because they choose to, not because society forces them to.



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26 Feb 2015, 7:27 am

Fnord wrote:
No, people murder themselves because they choose to, not because society forces them to.


I never said they were forced to commit suicide, but when people are mistreated by others that could contribute to their decision to off themselves. I believe in the right to die and I think it makes sense to opt for euthenasia when you get some fatal disease, but when people are mistreated by jerks and that contributes to their suicide then I see that as an unnecessary death. I think if we could lower suicide rates among minorities like LGBT just by treating them a little better then that is a good thing.
Oh, sometimes society forces people to commit suicide: Erwin Rommel. Of course he could have chosen not to do it, but the outcome would have been worse for him and his family. Of course these are rare cases but it happens.



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26 Feb 2015, 9:22 am

The relevant statistic is not "suicide rate treated population vs. suicide rate general population", but "suicide rate treated population vs. suicide rate untreated population". If the attempted suicide rate for transsexuals is 40% before treatment, and 20% after treatment, then the treatment halves the risk of suicide in a transsexual person.

It's a common belief that the brain is not part of the physical body, but that is incorrect. There's a reason psychiatrists are doctors. It may not be the biggest part of the body, but it is by far the most important - as can be demonstrated if you ask people whether they'd prefer to lose their legs, or their head. If someone's brain is destroyed, we don't consider them as being a living person anymore, but if any other organ of the body is destroyed, we still consider them to be a person who is alive and deserving of treatment. Understood?

It follows, then, that in the case of an individual who is psychologically intersexed - that is, having a brain that is (fully or partially) a different sex than other sexual markers would indicate - that the brain takes precedence when it comes to treatment. Even if we had a treatment that would alter the sex of the brain to bring it into conformity with the rest of the body (which, by the way, we don't - the only method that has proven to be in any way effective is transition), it does not follow that that treatment option is the best.

These are really simple concepts to understand.



beneficii
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26 Feb 2015, 10:46 am

ominous wrote:
Oh beneficii, this makes me feel sad for you. Just because one TS/TG person did something horrible doesn't mean you have to connect to it or be an apologist for TS/TG people. You don't have to do that or feel that anymore than an autistic would have to be an apologist for all autistics if one of us did something horrible, or anymore than a Muslim should have to be an apologist for all Muslims if one Muslim did something horrible.

None of us are guilty by association. I'm sorry you feel burdened by this.


Thanks. :) I suppose I can just support TS people who have similar goals: Assimilating as women, getting our hormones, getting the procedures we need done, etc. None of this support someone who has an obviously bizarre idea of gender identity like drinking the blood of victims of the opposite sex or who goes and commits rape or just other horrible, brutal crimes.


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beneficii
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26 Feb 2015, 10:54 am

Regarding the Swedish study everyone quotes, here is the full text:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

My contribution to the following Wikipedia article clarifies and summarizes what the study says:

Quote:
A long-term follow-up study performed in Sweden over a long period of time (1973–2003) found that morbidity, suicidality, and mortality in post-operative transsexual persons were still significantly higher than in the general population, suggesting that sex reassignment therapy is not enough to treat gender identity disorder, highlighting the need for improved health care following sex reassignment surgery. The study, however, states that "no inferences can be drawn [from this study] as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism," citing studies showing the effectiveness of sex reassignment therapy, though noting their poor quality. The authors noted that the results suggested that those who received sex reassignment surgery before 1989 had worse mortality, suicidality, and crime rates than those who received surgery on or after 1989: mortality, suicidality, and crime rates for the 1989-2003 cohort were not statistically significant compared to healthy controls (though psychiatric morbidity was); it is not clear if this is because these negative factors tended to increase a decade after surgery or because in the 1990s and later improved treatment and social attitudes may have led to better outcomes.[16]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy

It mentions suicidality and how it is not statistically significant for the 1989-2003 cohort, though the reason is unclear.

And yes, generally, studies on sex reassignment tend not to be very robust, but there is a reason for that, as I contributed in the Wikipedia article above (all Wiki stuff here is sourced); a couple of reviews clarified this:

Quote:
The abstract of the American Psychiatric Association Task Force on GID's report from 2012 states, "The quality of evidence pertaining to most aspects of treatment in all subgroups was determined to be low; however, areas of broad clinical consensus were identified and were deemed sufficient to support recommendations for treatment in all subgroups."[3] The APA Task Force states, with regard to the quality of studies, "For some important aspects of transgender care, it would be impossible or unwise to engage in more robust study designs due to ethical concerns and lack of volunteer enrollment. For example, it would be extremely problematic to include a 'long-term placebo treated control group' in an RCT of hormone therapy efficacy among gender variant adults desiring to use hormonal treatments." [3]:22 The Royal College of Psychiatrists concurs with regards to SRS in trans women, stating, "There is no level 1 or 2 evidence (Oxford levels) supporting the use of feminising vaginoplasty in women but this is to be expected since a randomised controlled study for this scenario would be impossible to carry out."[7]


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26 Feb 2015, 11:53 am

Mmmm, could there be an ethical way of doing such a study? Perhaps by putting up enough money to fund x number of operations, then recruting 2x transwomen, each of whom will have a 1/2 chance of receiving the surgery (compared to a much lower chance if they weren't partaking, of course).



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26 Feb 2015, 4:21 pm

beneficii wrote:
Thanks. :) I suppose I can just support TS people who have similar goals: Assimilating as women, getting our hormones, getting the procedures we need done, etc. None of this support someone who has an obviously bizarre idea of gender identity like drinking the blood of victims of the opposite sex or who goes and commits rape or just other horrible, brutal crimes.


Exactly. There are screwed up people in all walks of life. I think when we're in a minority we are always having to defend why x or y from our minority group doesn't represent us, and it sucks (literally, like the life and positive energy out of you) and can be heartbreaking. Just go about your way doing what you feel you need to do to feel comfortable, and supporting others who you feel are similar to you.

The media is always going to latch on to minority group individuals who are aberrant because it's sensational and gets people watching or reading. There's not much human interest in a TG/TS individual who goes about their daily life just living it the best they can like the average Jane or Joe - and just like in the autistic community the 'exceptional' (good or horrid) take centre stage and are meant to represent what and who we are (when they don't).



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26 Feb 2015, 4:26 pm

Magneto wrote:
These are really simple concepts to understand.



This is a forum filled with autistic people. Concepts that are simple for you to understand may be quite difficult for others with pervasive communication deficits to understand. It may be difficult for you to understand that due to pervasive developmental issues or ToM issues that make you think everyone can understand what you can understand. Not everyone can. Being condescending doesn't help anybody.