Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Can Homosexuality and the Christian Faith Exist Together?

Page 6 of 12 [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Bataar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,846
Location: Post Falls, ID

20 Mar 2015, 12:26 pm

appletheclown wrote:
Bataar wrote:
It's not a weakness for us since humans neither claim to be perfect nor do we claim to know everything. We learn new information all the time. I'll ask again, if something is perfect the way it is right now, how can it change in any way yet remain perfect?

As to your second point, humans don't/can't condem anyone. I'm speaking from the Catholic perspective and the church can't claim officially that anyone has been sent to hell. We believe it exists and that the likelihood that people go there is very high, but we can't claim to know who.

An omnipotent being who exists beyond our reality, should be able to decide what is perfect, and what is not perfect.
This is something both fundamentalist believers and Athiests have brought up to me as a reason for God not being able to exist, and predestination being true. This is ridiculous, if he is in control of the very fabric of reality, he for sure has the power to change his mind and still be perfect. What kind of omnipotent being wouldn't be perfect just because he changed his mind? When we people put boundaries on God and claim to believe in his omnipotence, it is comparable to saying Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier by going for a light stroll. You don't put boundaries on something you believe to be omnipotent.


When a church decides to make something a sin without any way of knowing God agrees, they 'condemn' people to hell. No one but God can decide what is sin and what is not sin.

So explain it. If something is perfect and it changes, it is therefore no longer perfect. If you disagree, explain how this can be possible. For something to change, that requires that the changed state is different from the original state. If the original state is perfect, then by the definition of change, the end result would not be perfect.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,145
Location: temperate zone

20 Mar 2015, 1:02 pm

KimD wrote:
Narrator wrote:
It's clear in the NT that homosexuality is not ok.
Just another reason religion is out of touch.
And Christianity isn't alone there.


OK: stop right there. I don't have time in the moment to scan the many comments between this one and my own, so it may be obvious that I just joined this discussion and I may be repeating something that's already been said. Too bad.

I not only take enormous offense at this statement (I'm an NT), but I can also tell you that a lot of it is just factually WRONG. For me and nearly everyone else in the Unitarian-Universalist church, homosexuality is just one expression of human love and physical attraction. Some of the main principles of our church is that each and every person has inherent worth and dignity and that justice, equity, and compassion should be the basis of human interactions. Acceptance of differences and reliance on your own conscience and intelligence are also biggies.

Years ago, our congregation chose to look closely at the issues and facts of life for non-heterosexual people and asked ourselves, through due process, if we wanted to become what's called a "Welcoming Congregation." It was an easy and almost unanimous decision that, yes, we did want to officially and adamantly announce ourselves to both our local and national communities that people of every sexual orientation were welcome warmly into our congregation and that we joined the larger Unitarian-Universalist Association in advocating for gay rights. I'm proud to say that one of our ministers was photographed by the Washington Post when gay marriage was legalized in VA as she performed a wedding for two women. She represents a lot of us.

Even if I didn't have GLBT friends, I still would have decided long ago that if people are equal, then two consenting adults should have the right to marry regardless of which dangly bits they have. More conservative, fundamentalist churches usually insist on sticking their own literal (and selective) interpretation of the Bible, but not all churches--nor all religions--are as out of touch. There are even individuals in some congregations and denominations who disagree with at least some of what's being taught and said there, but they feel trapped between tradition and modern reality and don't know there are other spiritual communities that would help them to match their practices with their values without feeling like they're defying God or going to hell.


I hope that you are aware that he was using the letter combination "NT" to mean "New Testament". Not to mean "neurotypical". Lol!

Not sure, but its sounds like you missunderstood him. So just wanna make sure that the two of you are on the same page!



Meistersinger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,700
Location: Beautiful(?) West Manchester Township PA

20 Mar 2015, 1:34 pm

May i direct you to the current issue of Lutheran Witness, which is published by the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod? The entire March issue is devoted to actions and behaviors that are Biblically considered to be taboo. Some of those taboos I don't quite agree with (where one of the articles blasts sexuality, especially the research of Kinsey.). Yes, I totally agree homosexuality is a sin. I made a comment some years ago in another thread here on WP that you choose homosexuality, you do not inherit it, as some so-called scientists will tell you. On the other hand, people like the late Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church are missing the mark when they proclaim JHWH hates fags. They never heard the dictum, hate the sin, love the sinner? Does not Luther's Small Cathecism teach we are to die to sin daily through the confessions. Does it also not say that after we confess our sin and receive absolution that we are to turn away from that sin?



KimD
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 May 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 576

20 Mar 2015, 8:30 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
KimD wrote:
Narrator wrote:
It's clear in the NT that homosexuality is not ok.
Just another reason religion is out of touch.
And Christianity isn't alone there.


OK: stop right there. I don't have time in the moment to scan the many comments between this one and my own, so it may be obvious that I just joined this discussion and I may be repeating something that's already been said. Too bad.

I not only take enormous offense at this statement (I'm an NT), but I can also tell you that a lot of it is just factually WRONG. For me and nearly everyone else in the Unitarian-Universalist church, homosexuality is just one expression of human love and physical attraction. Some of the main principles of our church is that each and every person has inherent worth and dignity and that justice, equity, and compassion should be the basis of human interactions. Acceptance of differences and reliance on your own conscience and intelligence are also biggies.

Years ago, our congregation chose to look closely at the issues and facts of life for non-heterosexual people and asked ourselves, through due process, if we wanted to become what's called a "Welcoming Congregation." It was an easy and almost unanimous decision that, yes, we did want to officially and adamantly announce ourselves to both our local and national communities that people of every sexual orientation were welcome warmly into our congregation and that we joined the larger Unitarian-Universalist Association in advocating for gay rights. I'm proud to say that one of our ministers was photographed by the Washington Post when gay marriage was legalized in VA as she performed a wedding for two women. She represents a lot of us.

Even if I didn't have GLBT friends, I still would have decided long ago that if people are equal, then two consenting adults should have the right to marry regardless of which dangly bits they have. More conservative, fundamentalist churches usually insist on sticking their own literal (and selective) interpretation of the Bible, but not all churches--nor all religions--are as out of touch. There are even individuals in some congregations and denominations who disagree with at least some of what's being taught and said there, but they feel trapped between tradition and modern reality and don't know there are other spiritual communities that would help them to match their practices with their values without feeling like they're defying God or going to hell.


I hope that you are aware that he was using the letter combination "NT" to mean "New Testament". Not to mean "neurotypical". Lol!

Not sure, but its sounds like you missunderstood him. So just wanna make sure that the two of you are on the same page!


Image



Iamaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Mar 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,196
Location: Irrelevant

22 Mar 2015, 4:53 am

No, sorry.


_________________
I'm an author: https://www.amazon.com/author/benfournier
Sub to my YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Iamnotaparakeet
"In the kingdom of hope, there is no winter."


daniel1948
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 2015
Age: 75
Posts: 62
Location: Spokane, WA

22 Mar 2015, 8:54 am

Alexanderplatz wrote:
As a straight man I'd happily kiss Daniel48 for his writing above, well said that man. It's like watching God at work in his writing.


Thanks for your very kind words.

Bataar wrote:
So explain it. If something is perfect and it changes, it is therefore no longer perfect. If you disagree, explain how this can be possible. For something to change, that requires that the changed state is different from the original state. If the original state is perfect, then by the definition of change, the end result would not be perfect.


The fallacy in your argument is that the word "perfect" is undefined and undefinable. In certain contexts, the word has meaning. A perfect circle is clearly defined in plane geometry (though undefined in non-Euclidean geometry). But what constitutes a perfect chair? Two different people will consider two different chairs to be perfect. I used to have a cat. For me, the perfect easy chair was an old beat-up thing from the Goodwill that my cat could scratch to shreds. It was the perfect chair for me because I didn't have to try to convince the cat not to scratch it. It doubled as a chair and a scratching post, and when it was completely shredded I could haul it to the dump and buy another for just a few bucks. Maybe for you the perfect easy chair is a leather recliner with a vibrator built in. Or maybe your favorite chair is a rocker; but for me the perfect chair cannot rock because I get carsick in rocking chairs.

You get my point? When you assert that God is "perfect" you really aren't saying anything. Maybe the perfect god for you is an absolute monarch who sets all the rules, but for someone else the perfect god is a constitutional monarch who allows his subjects to make the rules.

And then there's the question, How do you know the Creator of the universe was perfect by any standards, or omnipotent or omniscient??? Creationists love the watchmaker analogy: They say a watch does not make itself, so there must be a Creator. But a watchmaker is not omnipotent or omniscient or even necessarily a good person. He's just a guy who knows how to make watches. How do you know the world was not made by a cosmic watchmaker who is flawed in all the ways people are flawed, and not omnipotent at all, but just a being who knows how to make worlds?

All arguments that depend on the concept of perfection are invalid, unless you can provide an adequate definition of "perfect."

On a totally different topic: Are Unitarian Universalists Christians?

Easy to answer: Some are and some are not. The UU has its roots in Christianity, but welcomes all faiths. The UU contains Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Wiccans, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, and probably every other faith, spirituality, and non-faith. The UU has no dogma. Just a set of principles which boil down to "Respect people."

Christians, of course, are such a diverse group that a concise definition is tricky. Usually Christians believe that Jesus was God, that he died for our sins (a concept that I personally find perverse in the extreme) and that he rose on the third day and ascended to heaven. But there are variations. Very few Christians make any effort to live as he directed, though they believe he "saved" them.



appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

22 Mar 2015, 10:49 am

I guess I failed to realize how different my standards of perfection were.

The Holy book:
Image

The perfect book:
Image

The fun book:
Image

I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


_________________
comedic burp


daniel1948
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 2015
Age: 75
Posts: 62
Location: Spokane, WA

22 Mar 2015, 5:31 pm

appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?



appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

22 Mar 2015, 11:12 pm

daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?

The infinitely undefinable absolute of morality, power, and creativity.

But even this does not define God properly, as God in his fullness cannot be comprehended.


_________________
comedic burp


daniel1948
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 2015
Age: 75
Posts: 62
Location: Spokane, WA

23 Mar 2015, 7:14 am

appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?

The infinitely undefinable absolute of morality, power, and creativity.

But even this does not define God properly, as God in his fullness cannot be comprehended.


If God cannot be comprehended, then how do you know what he wants of you? How do you know what he considers moral or immoral? Note that different Christian sects differ widely in their opinions of this issue, not to mention all the other religions in the world. How do you even know that he's not a cosmic practical joker intentionally giving contradictory religions to different nations just to watch them sputter and fume at each other?

An incomprehensible God is as useless for providing guidance to humans as no God at all, since you cannot really know anything about him.



appletheclown
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2013
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,378
Location: Soul Society

23 Mar 2015, 8:26 am

daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?

The infinitely undefinable absolute of morality, power, and creativity.

But even this does not define God properly, as God in his fullness cannot be comprehended.


If God cannot be comprehended, then how do you know what he wants of you? How do you know what he considers moral or immoral? Note that different Christian sects differ widely in their opinions of this issue, not to mention all the other religions in the world. How do you even know that he's not a cosmic practical joker intentionally giving contradictory religions to different nations just to watch them sputter and fume at each other?

An incomprehensible God is as useless for providing guidance to humans as no God at all, since you cannot really know anything about him.

Note I said the fullness of God. He only shows us part of himself so he doesn't destroy us, like a dimmer switch on a supernova. I misworded it a little. What God shows of himself we can comprehend, but if he showed his full power,
POOF!


_________________
comedic burp


pcuser
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2014
Age: 73
Gender: Male
Posts: 913

23 Mar 2015, 8:33 am

appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?

The infinitely undefinable absolute of morality, power, and creativity.

But even this does not define God properly, as God in his fullness cannot be comprehended.


If God cannot be comprehended, then how do you know what he wants of you? How do you know what he considers moral or immoral? Note that different Christian sects differ widely in their opinions of this issue, not to mention all the other religions in the world. How do you even know that he's not a cosmic practical joker intentionally giving contradictory religions to different nations just to watch them sputter and fume at each other?

An incomprehensible God is as useless for providing guidance to humans as no God at all, since you cannot really know anything about him.

Note I said the fullness of God. He only shows us part of himself so he doesn't destroy us, like a dimmer switch on a supernova. I misworded it a little. What God shows of himself we can comprehend, but if he showed his full power,
POOF!

And I fart magic rainbows. They are perfect as well...



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,887
Location: Stendec

23 Mar 2015, 8:40 am

If there's enough money involved, many 'Christian' churches will coexist with practically anything.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,145
Location: temperate zone

23 Mar 2015, 8:48 am

According to every proselytizer 'God is unchanging'.

So how can an unchanging God change his mind again, and again?



GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

23 Mar 2015, 9:18 am

O.P.

It would seem that Christianity at one time had no problem existing and in fact embracing homosexuality. They even had a ceremony to celebrate it.

http://christianity-revealed.com/cr/fil ... nrite.html

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

23 Mar 2015, 9:20 am

pcuser wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
... I may view God as perfect, in my own definition,
but I don't believe anything is perfect that you can see, touch, or sense any other way.
Perfect is one of those words that doesn't always have to be an absolute, but when you ask
someone what is perfect, you can get a whole lot of varying responses even from the same people.


So, when you say that God is perfect, what do YOU mean by "perfect"?

The infinitely undefinable absolute of morality, power, and creativity.

But even this does not define God properly, as God in his fullness cannot be comprehended.


If God cannot be comprehended, then how do you know what he wants of you? How do you know what he considers moral or immoral? Note that different Christian sects differ widely in their opinions of this issue, not to mention all the other religions in the world. How do you even know that he's not a cosmic practical joker intentionally giving contradictory religions to different nations just to watch them sputter and fume at each other?

An incomprehensible God is as useless for providing guidance to humans as no God at all, since you cannot really know anything about him.

Note I said the fullness of God. He only shows us part of himself so he doesn't destroy us, like a dimmer switch on a supernova. I misworded it a little. What God shows of himself we can comprehend, but if he showed his full power,
POOF!

And I fart magic rainbows. They are perfect as well...


That's nothing compared to the big guy. :lol: :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmD9ZWD ... e=youtu.be

Regards
DL