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sly279
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24 Mar 2015, 9:34 pm

Mastercraft wrote:
So, after attempting (and failing) basic training, I have been thinking about what I personally believe in. And I have some ideas:
1. I believe all people who are interested in firearms should be required to get training BEFORE they are allowed to purchase.
2. I believe the current age-laws are acceptable, being 16 and over to get a rifle, and 21 and over to get a handgun.
3. I believe that the term 'guns' is almost derogatory, with how much it's been throw around recently. Hence why I either name the specific type, or use firearm. Similarly, I don't like 'assault weapon'. There are assault rifles, which makes it a little confusing. And technically, ALL weapons are used for assaulting. Hence the term 'weapons'.
4. I believe in background checks, and obviously, that 'mental illness' should be checked with the DSM, as Autism is currently identified as a Pervasive Developmental Disorder. (This, also, extends to government in general)
5. I believe that weapons of any kind should be transported either dismantled, or unloaded, and in a locked box.

My break is over so I'll stop there. Also, I wanted to add that 'background checks' are a flawed system. The federal government has a database of every criminal, as well as crimes, and all details thereof. Sellers of firearms should be able to access this database, because many people charged with crimes are later found innocent. Or are charged with felonies or misdemeanors that are in no way related to firearms. It would be terrible to be denied ownership because of a record of traffic accidents or overdue speeding tickets.


military basic? I can't stand people that think you have to be military trained to own guns like some how they are superior and any non cop/military person is inferior human.

1. nope. suggested sure required no. training can help, but training doesn't equal good. people can self teach better, trainers can be awful. now can people self teach sh***y and can trainers be great sure. but great trainers cost hundreds and thousands of dollars. its fine how it is.
2. pretty sure you have to be 18 to buy a rifle. if you can own a rifle you should be able to won a handgun, in fact it is legal for a 18 year old to own one, just not buy, so someone can buy one for them, or they can inherit one. makes no sense.
4. system needs fixed. why should they check the dsm? only those who are adjudicated to be mental ill are on the list.
5. nope what point is there in owning a gun then. i carry mine loaded, when i go to the range the guns i don't carry go unloaded. disassembled o.O why the heck ? you afriad of a empty gun? reminds me of that senator or reporter who said unloaded disassembled guns kill people.

i think the 1968 gun act and 20s gun act need removed. these laws are just illogical.
its all about artificially raising prices and taxing people.



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24 Mar 2015, 9:43 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Meistersinger wrote:
...I made the comment if you own a gun, training in proper use and care should be a prerequisite to owning a gun.

[...] You should be glad I don't know and don't want to know how to use a gun, because when my short fuse gets lit, the resulting explosion lasts for quite a while, and everyone usually regret setting me off....

Many states already require such training for firearms, but many don't. Is there a difference between the statistical evidences to suggest that states which don't require training have more accidental discharges? I haven't heard of any such difference either way.

Your self description suggests a lack of experience in shooting firearms. Most states' laws allow you to rent firearms at shooting ranges. This provision helps those businesses and individuals who are providing and enrolling in firearm-safety classes so that hands-on experience is affordable with the least amount of interference by law. Most states even let you join an uncle, niece or neighbor to learn the basics of firearms and shooting.

I have instructed several family members and friends who, while not wanting to buy, own or possess a firearm themselves, want to get over their fear of firearms and shooting, or at least add to their life experiences by knowing how.

You might consider enrolling in such a class or asking someone you know to give you the basics at a nearby shooting range when it is convenient for both of you. You might discover what most people discover after firing their very first shot: That their only fear was in their minds and that shooting a firearm is fundamentally simple and easy. They usually react with asking the hypothetical question "THAT is what I was so worried about?" They find it fun, exhilarating and ... empowering" not because they want to rush out and shoot down innocent people, but that they could defend themselves all by themselves if they chose to do so. After such an experience, few need more instruction unless they want specific competition, hunting or tactical knowledge.

Just a suggestion. Think about it. :)


Yeah, I remember practicing various times since I was like 13 with my family, and having guns around does not scare me. It's just you need to remember a few safety tips and practice them, such as when you gain possession of a gun, you need to first check its status: Is it loaded or not? Is there a bullet in the chamber (where simply pulling the trigger would cause the gun to fire a bullet)? etc.; never point your gun at anything or anyone you are not looking to shoot (usually means having the gun facing down); and various others.


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25 Mar 2015, 11:18 am

Mastercraft wrote:
So, I sided with the National Rifle Association, thinking they would 'protect my rights'. However, when I received a pamphlet from them, I was quite disillusioned. They are pretty much what everyone thinks they are, unfortunately. At least from the pamphlet, they wanted some fairly standard demands, namely firearms NOT being summarily banned. But they also wanted to lift age-restraints, as well as let known criminals purchase them. And that is not what I wanted.

The NRA isn't tailored for anyone's liking.
I belong to it because:
1. It is still the largest pro-gun lobbying entity.
2. The gun club I belong to requires it as a condition of membership.

I have no idea what's in their pamphlets because I dont read them. The American Rifleman sometimes has decent articles and that's the only thing from them I read. The rest of it is mostly them panhandling for more money which they won't get from me. As far as lowering the age for gun purchases I have no problems with tmey lowering the handgun purchase age to 18. If you're old enough to vote, serve on a jury, and serve in the armed forces then you're old enough to own any gun you want. As far as known criminals goes, in my opinion if someone has served their time and paid their debt to society then their rights should be restored.

Quote:
1. I believe all people who are interested in firearms should be required to get training BEFORE they are allowed to purchase.

Give more power to the government for them to abuse is what I'm reading here. Why not just teach gun safety in the schools?

Quote:
2. I believe the current age-laws are acceptable, being 16 and over to get a rifle, and 21 and over to get a handgun.

It's 18 for rifles and shotguns and 21 for handguns at the time.

Quote:
3. I believe that the term 'guns' is almost derogatory, with how much it's been throw around recently. Hence why I either name the specific type, or use firearm. Similarly, I don't like 'assault weapon'. There are assault rifles, which makes it a little confusing. And technically, ALL weapons are used for assaulting. Hence the term 'weapons'.

Assault weapon is only a legal term and a stupid one at that.

Quote:
4. I believe in background checks, and obviously, that 'mental illness' should be checked with the DSM, as Autism is currently identified as a Pervasive Developmental Disorder. (This, also, extends to government in general.

We already have NICS.

Quote:
5. I believe that weapons of any kind should be transported either dismantled, or unloaded, and in a locked box.

I'm sure carjackers applaud your desire to make their job safer.....
:roll:


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25 Mar 2015, 11:51 am

Raptor wrote:
The NRA isn't tailored for anyone's liking.
I belong to it because:
1. It is still the largest pro-gun lobbying entity....

It does stellar work as a political-action committee by giving campaign cash to friendly candidates, but I doubt the influence it has to influence some congressional votes. More broadly, the advocacy group that has demonstrably changed the landscape of firearm politics in the United States has been the Second Amendment Foundation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Am ... Foundation ) since it succeeded in the U.S. Supreme Court opinions about the matters of District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010). In Heller, the NRA had to go, hat-in-hand, begging the Court to allow it to weasel in on a matter that the NRA had dismissed and denigrated before it saw that landmark law was about to be made with or without it.


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25 Mar 2015, 12:05 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
The NRA isn't tailored for anyone's liking.
I belong to it because:
1. It is still the largest pro-gun lobbying entity....

It does stellar work as a political-action committee by giving campaign cash to friendly candidates, but I doubt the influence it has to influence some congressional votes. More broadly, the advocacy group that has demonstrably changed the landscape of firearm politics in the United States has been the Second Amendment Foundation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Am ... Foundation ) since it succeeded in the U.S. Supreme Court opinions about the matters of District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010). In Heller, the NRA had to go, hat-in-hand, begging the Court to allow it to weasel in on a matter that the NRA had dismissed and denigrated before it saw that landmark law was about to be made with or without it.


One of the things that helps the NRA, it's size, also hurts them in that it is somewhat of a bureaucratic whorehouse lacking in focus and direction.


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25 Mar 2015, 12:14 pm

Raptor wrote:
One of the things that helps the NRA, it's size, also hurts them in that it is somewhat of a bureaucratic whorehouse lacking in focus and direction.

Oh, ya! Every NRA member I know wishes that it would trim back to the original training and instruction group that it once was and include the highly successfully PAC as its only division (like the NRA-ILA already is). But, lobbying and legal work seems to step in it as often as their membership fulfillment divisions. I really wish I could like the NRA, but, oh well....


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26 Mar 2015, 12:36 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Are we in the middle of some sort of silenced assault gatling shotgun crime wave that I'm unaware of?




No, however.........Gatling guns are devastating weapons(like the M134 minigun) because of their extremely high rate of fire. The minigun has a shredding effect against human and vehicular targets. Allowing civilian possession of these weapons will give terrorists, mobsters, and insurgents the upper hand. Ditto for rocket launchers, grenade launchers, and other military weapons. I think that anything up to .50 caliber, single-shot or full auto, should be legal for civilian possession without the red tape of a Class III firearms license. Anything above .50 caliber should be strictly reserved for military and law enforcement.

In the case of the minigun, even though civilians can legally own one if they have a Class III firearms license, the company that manufactures them(Dillon Aero) has a contract with Uncle Sam that they only sell these weapons and parts to the US military. So yeah, even though you could own one you cannot get one.



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26 Mar 2015, 1:17 pm

mini gun is in 308. i think

as for the mob and terrorist they already get those things despite them being illegal.
they sell those things to 3rd world countries who sell them to criminals.
they don't' see them much cause as a criminal part of it is keeping hidden. if you drove around with a minigun or rpg on your roof you'd attract attention. so they mostly use small concealable handguns.

one can't buy a mingun as you can't get new produced full autos unless the case goes in our favor.
you can get gatling guns which are hand cranked.



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26 Mar 2015, 2:00 pm

sly279 wrote:
mini gun is in 308. i think

as for the mob and terrorist they already get those things despite them being illegal.



Uhhhhhhh.....Dillon Aero charges well over $100,000.00 for a minigun. And do you have any evidence of the M134 minigun being sold to terrorists and mobsters in foreign countries? Another thing about the minigun is that it uses and electric motor which requires a 1.2 kW power supply to operate which makes them rather impractical for the kind of uses you're describing. The Russian GShG-7.62 minigun is self-powered and that might make it to the black market.

Modern gatling guns are not hand cranked like the original gatling gun. They either are driven by an electric motor or use the recoil force to rotate the barrel and fire the gun continuously. But do not underestimate the devastating destructive power of these weapons! They are by far the deadliest fire-powered guns in existence.



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26 Mar 2015, 2:14 pm

Meistersinger wrote:
The fact that anytime the topic of gun ownership and gun control comes up, the pro-gun lobby goes on a smear campaign against the opposition, no matter how benign the comment that was made.
You forgot that we see the same thing from the anti-gun people.

Quote:
I made the comment if you own a gun, training in proper use and care should be a prerequisite to owning a gun. For example, would you rather have your appendix removed by a board-certified surgeon or a back alley hack? Gun ownership should be viewed in the same manner.


The two are not even comparable.

No matter how much training in proper use and care one might have, if he doesn't have much common sense, he is dangerous. Consider, for example, the cop in Oklahoma a few years ago who shot at a snake in a tree without knowing what was downrange and ended up killing a child.

On the other hand, someone with common sense is going to be fairly safe even with no training at all.



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26 Mar 2015, 5:41 pm

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
sly279 wrote:
mini gun is in 308. i think

as for the mob and terrorist they already get those things despite them being illegal.



Uhhhhhhh.....Dillon Aero charges well over $100,000.00 for a minigun. And do you have any evidence of the M134 minigun being sold to terrorists and mobsters in foreign countries? Another thing about the minigun is that it uses and electric motor which requires a 1.2 kW power supply to operate which makes them rather impractical for the kind of uses you're describing. The Russian GShG-7.62 minigun is self-powered and that might make it to the black market.

Modern gatling guns are not hand cranked like the original gatling gun. They either are driven by an electric motor or use the recoil force to rotate the barrel and fire the gun continuously. But do not underestimate the devastating destructive power of these weapons! They are by far the deadliest fire-powered guns in existence.


Dillon Aero isn't the only manufacture of mingun. and apparently a mini gun can be had from 20k -300k highly doubt the government would pay 100k per mini gun when they could get a s**t ton of m240 s for the same price.
you swap the battery out, terrorist arn't cave men, they have laptops, power, tvs, etc. they get them from governments we sell to who then "lose" them or get over run and actually lose them.

nope people still make the old styled hand cranked gatling guns. they fall under any other weapon i believe so are easier to get.

also when i said those things I meant all the things you listed, full auto, rpg, grenades, etc. the mingun is rather impractical for anyone besides being a scare tactic. sure it kills but it wastes so much ammo in the process.

really the deadliest so more deadly than a tank gun? or artillery? both guns just big ones. i'd think they more deadly
personally I wouldn't want full auto guns except for select fire. full auto is fun for bit but such a waste of ammo and costly to use. unless you are giving support with suppressive fire to advancing units its not that useful except for maybe room clearing.



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27 Mar 2015, 11:06 am

sly279 wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
sly279 wrote:
mini gun is in 308. i think

as for the mob and terrorist they already get those things despite them being illegal.



Uhhhhhhh.....Dillon Aero charges well over $100,000.00 for a minigun. And do you have any evidence of the M134 minigun being sold to terrorists and mobsters in foreign countries? Another thing about the minigun is that it uses and electric motor which requires a 1.2 kW power supply to operate which makes them rather impractical for the kind of uses you're describing. The Russian GShG-7.62 minigun is self-powered and that might make it to the black market.

Modern gatling guns are not hand cranked like the original gatling gun. They either are driven by an electric motor or use the recoil force to rotate the barrel and fire the gun continuously. But do not underestimate the devastating destructive power of these weapons! They are by far the deadliest fire-powered guns in existence.


Dillon Aero isn't the only manufacture of mingun. and apparently a mini gun can be had from 20k -300k highly doubt the government would pay 100k per mini gun when they could get a s**t ton of m240 s for the same price.
you swap the battery out, terrorist arn't cave men, they have laptops, power, tvs, etc. they get them from governments we sell to who then "lose" them or get over run and actually lose them.

nope people still make the old styled hand cranked gatling guns. they fall under any other weapon i believe so are easier to get.

also when i said those things I meant all the things you listed, full auto, rpg, grenades, etc. the mingun is rather impractical for anyone besides being a scare tactic. sure it kills but it wastes so much ammo in the process.

really the deadliest so more deadly than a tank gun? or artillery? both guns just big ones. i'd think they more deadly
personally I wouldn't want full auto guns except for select fire. full auto is fun for bit but such a waste of ammo and costly to use. unless you are giving support with suppressive fire to advancing units its not that useful except for maybe room clearing.





The minigun has a much higher firing rate than the M240 and it can do a SH*TLOAD more damage. The minigun is still in use and is mounted on armored vehicles and helicopters. You are correct that Dillon Aero is not the only manufacturer of the minigun(originally designed and produced by General Electric). Even so, the other defense contractors that manufacture them do not sell them to civilians. Even with a class III firearms license!



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27 Mar 2015, 11:11 am

A minigun would also be somewhat awkward to commit a crime with, and the ridiculous rate of fire would be really expensive to sustain.



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27 Mar 2015, 11:46 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
One of the things that helps the NRA, it's size, also hurts them in that it is somewhat of a bureaucratic whorehouse lacking in focus and direction.

Oh, ya! Every NRA member I know wishes that it would trim back to the original training and instruction group that it once was and include the highly successfully PAC as its only division (like the NRA-ILA already is). But, lobbying and legal work seems to step in it as often as their membership fulfillment divisions. I really wish I could like the NRA, but, oh well....

What they need to be doing is reaching John Q. Citizen (the voters) and not wasting so much time on turncoat politicians. They piss away too much time and resources sending s**t to the members, too. That's nothing more than preaching to the choir.


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27 Mar 2015, 2:15 pm

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
sly279 wrote:
mini gun is in 308. i think

as for the mob and terrorist they already get those things despite them being illegal.



Uhhhhhhh.....Dillon Aero charges well over $100,000.00 for a minigun. And do you have any evidence of the M134 minigun being sold to terrorists and mobsters in foreign countries? Another thing about the minigun is that it uses and electric motor which requires a 1.2 kW power supply to operate which makes them rather impractical for the kind of uses you're describing. The Russian GShG-7.62 minigun is self-powered and that might make it to the black market.

Modern gatling guns are not hand cranked like the original gatling gun. They either are driven by an electric motor or use the recoil force to rotate the barrel and fire the gun continuously. But do not underestimate the devastating destructive power of these weapons! They are by far the deadliest fire-powered guns in existence.


Dillon Aero isn't the only manufacture of mingun. and apparently a mini gun can be had from 20k -300k highly doubt the government would pay 100k per mini gun when they could get a s**t ton of m240 s for the same price.
you swap the battery out, terrorist arn't cave men, they have laptops, power, tvs, etc. they get them from governments we sell to who then "lose" them or get over run and actually lose them.

nope people still make the old styled hand cranked gatling guns. they fall under any other weapon i believe so are easier to get.

also when i said those things I meant all the things you listed, full auto, rpg, grenades, etc. the mingun is rather impractical for anyone besides being a scare tactic. sure it kills but it wastes so much ammo in the process.

really the deadliest so more deadly than a tank gun? or artillery? both guns just big ones. i'd think they more deadly
personally I wouldn't want full auto guns except for select fire. full auto is fun for bit but such a waste of ammo and costly to use. unless you are giving support with suppressive fire to advancing units its not that useful except for maybe room clearing.





The minigun has a much higher firing rate than the M240 and it can do a SH*TLOAD more damage. The minigun is still in use and is mounted on armored vehicles and helicopters. You are correct that Dillon Aero is not the only manufacturer of the minigun(originally designed and produced by General Electric). Even so, the other defense contractors that manufacture them do not sell them to civilians. Even with a class III firearms license!



helicopters till also use 50 cals, if german taught us one thing from ww2 a machine gun with a high rate of rie isn't the best. its scary but it waste a lot of rounds on one target where one .50 or few rounds from m240 would kill.

only cause they can't sell new machine guns duh. if you remove that law they'd be selling them to civilians, you can buy ones made pre 1968 why. cause they were just fine selling them. there's actually some civilian with connections that do have the new ones, they just can't sell them . only the law is preventing the sale not some companies morals, if the law was gone the company would make civilian tactical models cause civilians money is just as good if not better than the militaries.



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27 Mar 2015, 3:23 pm

sly279 wrote:

helicopters till also use 50 cals, if german taught us one thing from ww2 a machine gun with a high rate of rie isn't the best. its scary but it waste a lot of rounds on one target where one .50 or few rounds from m240 would kill.

only cause they can't sell new machine guns duh. if you remove that law they'd be selling them to civilians, you can buy ones made pre 1968 why. cause they were just fine selling them. there's actually some civilian with connections that do have the new ones, they just can't sell them . only the law is preventing the sale not some companies morals, if the law was gone the company would make civilian tactical models cause civilians money is just as good if not better than the militaries.




The problem with the German MG42 machine gun was overheating of the barrel due to the high rate of fire.But a new version of the MG42, the MG3, has effectively solved that problem using a shorter barrel with a chromium inner lining.
Machine guns are used in war mainly for ambush and suppressive fire. The more bullets hitting the target per unit time, the more damage is inflicted on the target since each bullet exerts an impact force and more bullest/unit time means a greater cumulative impact force on the target. This is very useful in attacking armored targets and vehicles. The M134 minigun and the Russian GShK-7.62 have both proven themselves to be devastatingly effective weapons on the battlefield. Russian built Mi-24 HIND helicopters with GShK-7.62 mowed down terrorists in the Soviet-Afghan war and in the Angolan civil war(when used against western backed anti-communist UNITA rebels).

As for companies selling miniguns to civilians in absence of laws against it and a government to enforce those laws.....well DUHHHH!