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Moromillas
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14 Mar 2015, 12:45 am

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Wait wait, so because he called Autism a mental disorder, and wants to help rid the world of autism he's supporting f*****g eugenic elimination? Jesus f*****g Christ, you ret*ds will pick at anything this guy says! It is a MENTAL DISORDER. I know MANY autistic children, my cousin included, who live terrible, secluded lives and have no friends. Sorry if you think that's such a positive trait, but for others, it is not.


How sick to f*****g death are you, of curebies pretending to be experts, because they "know someone that has it." Surely I'm not the only one that's noticed just how prevalent the ad verecundiam is these days.

And 99% of the time, the "someone that has it", is still a f*****g child. Just think about that for a second. Not an objective analysis, not a scientific analysis, but the friend count, of one child.

Notice how it's always "I know someone that has it." instead of "An Aspergian told me about it." The glaring implication being that we're either too stupid or too mentally ret*d to understand what's going on, ironically enough. Therefore, our experiences are invalid, leaving the only valid metric, the keen observational skills of the thick.

More importantly, how do we combat this level of stupidity?



B19
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14 Mar 2015, 1:09 am

Before I got cancer, I knew of plenty of people who had (or had had) cancer. I knew absolutely nothing about the experience of having cancer until it happened to me. And I was somewhat rattled at times by people who offered me their unwanted advice, people who had never experienced cancer themselves. The best advice came from "members of the club" - eg "you will find out who your real friends are". So true...! And "you will never the be same person after recovery". Also true. I was a better person afterwards.

I find the self-appointed experts that you cite in your opening post extremely ignorant and obnoxiously so.



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14 Mar 2015, 1:53 am

From a Wikipedia page which details various forms of fallacious argument, this form perhaps best fits your example of "I know someone who has....(therefore I am an expert on it):

Appeal to non-authorities
Fallacious arguments from authority often are the result of citing a non-authority as an authority.[4] First, when the inference refers to an inexpert authority, it is an appeal to inappropriate authority, which occurs when an inference relies upon a person or a group without relevant expertise or knowledge of the subject matter under discussion.



heavenlyabyss
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14 Mar 2015, 2:05 am

What is an aspergian? How does one know if they are one?

I think most of the people who post regularly on this forum are rather high functioning in terms of autism. Of course they might have comorbids like depression, PTSD, schizophrenia, anxiety, tourettes, that can be just as disabling or more so in some cases.

I think the people who want cures are probably lower functioning in the sense that they have a lower quality of life Or perhaps they are parents of autistic kids who have aggressive violent behavior. Or perhaps they can't communicate verbally. Eh I don't know. Everyone's got their own view.

To the OP, why don't you want a cure? Do you think curing your autism would make your life worse or better?



Aspiewordsmith
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14 Mar 2015, 7:55 am

Knowing an aspie whether you mum,dad,brother, sister, nan, grandad or even a friend does not make one an expert. To say one is an expert due to second hand experience that being related to an AS person does not make you an expert and is arrogance to say so.



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14 Mar 2015, 12:24 pm

"Street Smarts" is valued more then "intellectual ability" in the USA. The self made millionaire who did not go to college or cruised through it ala the late Steve Jobs and Bill Gates is admired while the "pointy head" college professor is not. Alan Turing is an somewhat of an exception he helped win WWII and had a British accent.


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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

It is Autism Acceptance Month

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


Moromillas
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14 Mar 2015, 5:30 pm

heavenlyabyss wrote:
What is an aspergian? How does one know if they are one?

I think most of the people who post regularly on this forum are rather high functioning in terms of autism. Of course they might have comorbids like depression, PTSD, schizophrenia, anxiety, tourettes, that can be just as disabling or more so in some cases.

I think the people who want cures are probably lower functioning in the sense that they have a lower quality of life Or perhaps they are parents of autistic kids who have aggressive violent behavior. Or perhaps they can't communicate verbally. Eh I don't know. Everyone's got their own view.

To the OP, why don't you want a cure? Do you think curing your autism would make your life worse or better?


It's not unusual that the forum looks "high functioning", and it's no happy coincidence. It's an accurate representation of Aspergians and actually Autistic people.

Yes and you tell them the "severely Autistic" child smearing poo on the walls, is very rare, to the point where it's an inaccurate depiction of Autism, or that children are not accurate depictions of Autism, and they can't let go of their misconceptions. If they find out you're on the spectrum, that's it, you're done son. They conclude that you don't understand, because that's all they view us as.

I don't want eugenic elimination for many reasons. For starters, because we've every right to exist, and then some. That it's even a discussion is incredibly demoralising, to be viewed as nothing more than a disease to be wiped out. Just the thought alone, that there are people hell bent on wiping us out makes you sick. We would also be losing something quite valuable, that it would be a deathblow to the human race.

If black people in Ferguson were all white, I'm sure their life would be better. If gay people in deeply religious areas were all straight, I'm sure their life would be better. If AS people living under such stigma were suddenly NTs, I'm sure their life would be better. Not "better" but simpler, less complications, less conflicts, more conformity, more boring, cookie cutter people. Better for bigots, but sure as hell not better for me. So no, it would not be "better", and there are few things worse than losing yourself.



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14 Mar 2015, 5:42 pm

[sarcasm]

I am an expert on Autism. My father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was a clinical psychologist.

[/sarcasm]

(Quick! Cite the movie reference!)



Moromillas
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14 Mar 2015, 5:44 pm

Fnord wrote:
[sarcasm]

I am an expert on Autism. My father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was a clinical psychologist.

[/sarcasm]

(Quick! Cite the movie reference!)


Spaceballs. Too easy.



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14 Mar 2015, 5:54 pm

Your opening post concluded with "how do we change this". I think that without co-ordinated activism, activism that is planned, well referenced, co-ordinated by able leaders, it won't change. Nothing changes in the social justice arena in my experience until there is a critical mass of informed advocates who work together.

On a more positive note, I've seen tremendous change in other areas where previously marginalised groups who have been misrepresented and smeared (homosexual law reform in NZ is an example) stop giving away their power by using it in an isolated complaint way and start banding together and using power in a focused, purposeful, goal-directed way to achieve specific and articulated goals.

Basically, to achieve this change, you need "seed" activists with good leadership and analytical qualities who have:

the ability to identify the appropriate mechanisms and avenues for addressing these issues.
the ability to seek out and join with potential allies.
the ability to support existing alliances for change.
with allies, the ability to prepare convincing data and rationales for change.
with allies, the ability to lobby legislators and other policy makers.
the ability to maintain open dialogue with communities and media.

I have an ABA thread going concurrently with this one, hoping some activists will turn up in it, though it is not a very confident hope so far - people oppose ABA in principle and practice though beyond expressing those opinions here, the energy seems to go nowhere in terms of focused activism, which is a lost opportunity to my own personal way of thinking...



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14 Mar 2015, 6:38 pm

Moromillas wrote:
Fnord wrote:
[sarcasm]I am an expert on Autism. My father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was a clinical psychologist.[/sarcasm](Quick! Cite the movie reference!)
Spaceballs. Too easy.
I thought it was hilarious; but that's what 38 hours without sleep will do to me.

Back on topic.

There was a woman at one place I worked whose grandfather was some kinda world-famous surgeon (I forget his name). She thought that this relationship alone granted her credibility in diagnosing everyone else's symptoms and second-guessing their own doctors' diagnoses (she had only a general studies degree from one of the "Seven Sisters" colleges back east). A simple cough could mean Ebola, MERS, SARS, anti-biotic resistant tuberculosis ... et cetera.

She had one poor girl believing that her monthly cramps were a sure sign of hepatitis C, so that the poor girl wasted her entire co-pay on blood tests and all of her personal days and sick days recovering from a liver biopsy that came back negative.

I resigned from that place, but not before she 'diagnosed' me with pre-epilepsy syndrome because I liked to stare out the window and watch the clouds go by.



Moromillas
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14 Mar 2015, 8:10 pm

B19 wrote:
Your opening post concluded with "how do we change this". I think that without co-ordinated activism, activism that is planned, well referenced, co-ordinated by able leaders, it won't change. Nothing changes in the social justice arena in my experience until there is a critical mass of informed advocates who work together.

On a more positive note, I've seen tremendous change in other areas where previously marginalised groups who have been misrepresented and smeared (homosexual law reform in NZ is an example) stop giving away their power by using it in an isolated complaint way and start banding together and using power in a focused, purposeful, goal-directed way to achieve specific and articulated goals.

Basically, to achieve this change, you need "seed" activists with good leadership and analytical qualities who have:

the ability to identify the appropriate mechanisms and avenues for addressing these issues.
the ability to seek out and join with potential allies.
the ability to support existing alliances for change.
with allies, the ability to prepare convincing data and rationales for change.
with allies, the ability to lobby legislators and other policy makers.
the ability to maintain open dialogue with communities and media.

I have an ABA thread going concurrently with this one, hoping some activists will turn up in it, though it is not a very confident hope so far - people oppose ABA in principle and practice though beyond expressing those opinions here, the energy seems to go nowhere in terms of focused activism, which is a lost opportunity to my own personal way of thinking...


Legislators and policy makers? You mean, something like a PAC that operates on the state level? Volunteers doing door knocks and phone calls, to convince the constituents of something, so that it will put pressure on state legislators to introduce a specific reform, then move to the next state on the list and start over. Something like that?

I suppose something like that could work, but here's the thing, or the core problem: For each person that you've reached out to about AS acceptance, how many have gone "You have a point there, you guys aren't really a disease"? That just doesn't happen, the "screaming poo smearing child" is deeply ingrained in society. There are a lot of people that hate the facts, because it doesn't neatly fit in with their opinion or view, they cling to it like a leech on a pig's ass.



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14 Mar 2015, 8:21 pm

Not door to door - we never did anything like that and it would be dangerous in some areas. We started here (in other kinds of reform) by issuing press releases and educating the media, direct lobbying of politicians until we found one that was powerful enough and interested enough to co-ordinate with his peer members of parliament, we held education seminars, all sorts of things, but never one to one door knocking. We weren't girl guides selling biscuits! That would have been a waste of resources, ineffective as a major change strategy and you are competing with religious hawkers. People don't want to be bothered by intrusions into their own space in their own time, it just antagonises most of them.



Moromillas
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14 Mar 2015, 9:07 pm

B19 wrote:
Not door to door - we never did anything like that and it would be dangerous in some areas. We started here (in other kinds of reform) by issuing press releases and educating the media, direct lobbying of politicians until we found one that was powerful enough and interested enough to co-ordinate with his peer members of parliament, we held education seminars, all sorts of things, but never one to one door knocking. We weren't girl guides selling biscuits! That would have been a waste of resources, ineffective as a major change strategy and you are competing with religious hawkers. People don't want to be bothered by intrusions into their own space in their own time, it just antagonises most of them.


That's exactly what I was eluding to, it's too dangerous and not very effective. I imagine gay rights groups would have had similar concerns not too many years ago, there would only be a small handful crazy enough to sign up for that.

The media just recently completely ignored such a large and outspoken response to Speaks' 10 year anniversary. What media was willing to listen to you? How did you lobby politicians? What reform was it?



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14 Mar 2015, 9:45 pm

We achieved two statute changes despite very intense, hostile and ignorant opposition:

1)The Adult Adoption Information Act enacted 1985 (opened adoption records which had been closed since1955 and gave adults rights of access to their information held by state and other agencies).

2)Homosexual Law Reform enacted 1986
Completely decriminalised homosexuality as an offence and removed all previous statutory discriminations. This enabled protection from workplace etc discriminations as that category was brought under the umbrella of 1993 Human Rights legislation as well. You cannot be discriminated against in those ways on the basis of your sexual orientation by employers, workmates, institutions, etc. Equal rights finally did become fully equal.

The first took ten years of work;
The second was much faster as the first battle had made people realise that you could effect change despite huge opposition and ignorance and that there were effective processes to do this.



Moromillas
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15 Mar 2015, 6:49 pm

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I'm more of an expert than you. You think autism makes people individualized and special. It doesn't. It makes them socially handicapped and often times secluded. You may be autistic yourself and feel differently, but I've seen it firsthand. And I find it hilarious how you don't condemn Google for putting $50 mil. into curing autism, yet you freak out when the Pope says we should help these people. You're a worthless sham who just wants to put a man in a bad light.


Just in our social group, (excluding the specialists) we have combined, over 150 years of experience, not with childhood AS, but adult AS...

Edit: Also he's talking about when Pope Francis called on researchers and scholars to "prevent the onset".