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naturalplastic
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21 Mar 2015, 1:08 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Also if Jesus existed - he was supposed to have been a carpenter- a common tradesman.
Not an aristocrat.
So if he were to be executed he would not have flown first class- but would indeed be given the low class treatment of crucifiction.

And BTW no one claims the Jesus was ever "a man of the cloth"(not that that would even make any difference to how they would execute him). Modern people today have dubbed Jesus a "rabbi" because in Judaism ANY adult male who appoints himself as a teacher can be a rabbi (its not as formal a status as being catholic priest, or being ancient Jewish priest of the temple either). He was an adult male Jew who went around teaching- so he was a rabbi. He didnt have any official status as a "clergyman".

YES thank you - so many "Jesuses" only supports my claim that the image of Jesus could possibly represent more than one man.
Carpenter Jesus
Rabbi Jesus
Son of Man Jesus
Jesus the God
Jesus the slave
Jesus the unmarried
Jesus with Mary Magdeline
Healer Jesus
Jesus the only child
Jesus with many brothers and sisters
Jesus the party host
Jesus the teacher.

Did I leave any out?

Many crucifixion stories. They were real human beings not to be lost to history.

Btw, one Jesus wasn't really a carpenter, more like a mason.


Also, another version of Jesus does portray him as a youthful Rabbi in training. Saying he is the first born son of a woman who has never had sex with a physical man is another way of saying he is to be given to the temple for training as a rabbi. It is not a direct way of saying it, rather, an implication.


Quite a few other Jesuses actually.

Jesus as Che Guevara ( a rebel). Popular among the modern disenfranchised. Not a popular interpretation among the well heeled of today. Am talking about modern interpretations of ancient interpretations.

And the ancient books paint varied pictures to begin with.

In the "Infant Gospel of St. Thomas" (that got left out of the canon) you can read about " Jesus as Dennis the Menace".
As a pre teen he was quite the brat in that book! Even killed one of his little playmates (brought the tyke back to life though).



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21 Mar 2015, 1:18 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Also if Jesus existed - he was supposed to have been a carpenter- a common tradesman.
Not an aristocrat.
So if he were to be executed he would not have flown first class- but would indeed be given the low class treatment of crucifiction.

And BTW no one claims the Jesus was ever "a man of the cloth"(not that that would even make any difference to how they would execute him). Modern people today have dubbed Jesus a "rabbi" because in Judaism ANY adult male who appoints himself as a teacher can be a rabbi (its not as formal a status as being catholic priest, or being ancient Jewish priest of the temple either). He was an adult male Jew who went around teaching- so he was a rabbi. He didnt have any official status as a "clergyman".

YES thank you - so many "Jesuses" only supports my claim that the image of Jesus could possibly represent more than one man.
Carpenter Jesus
Rabbi Jesus
Son of Man Jesus
Jesus the God
Jesus the slave
Jesus the unmarried
Jesus with Mary Magdeline
Healer Jesus
Jesus the only child
Jesus with many brothers and sisters
Jesus the party host
Jesus the teacher.

Did I leave any out?

Many crucifixion stories. They were real human beings not to be lost to history.

Btw, one Jesus wasn't really a carpenter, more like a mason.


Also, another version of Jesus does portray him as a youthful Rabbi in training. Saying he is the first born son of a woman who has never had sex with a physical man is another way of saying he is to be given to the temple for training as a rabbi. It is not a direct way of saying it, rather, an implication.


Quite a few other Jesuses actually.

Jesus as Che Guevara ( a rebel). Popular among the modern disenfranchised. Not a popular interpretation among the well heeled of today. Am talking about modern interpretations of ancient interpretations.

And the ancient books paint varied pictures to begin with.

In the "Infant Gospel of St. Thomas" (that got left out of the canon) you can read about " Jesus as Dennis the Menace".
As a pre teen he was quite the brat in that book! Even killed one of his little playmates (brought the tyke back to life though).

Healer/Divine Jesus let Lazarus suffer just so he could bring him back to life, claiming it honored the power of God. He refused to answer the call for help right away then said it was so he could bring Lazarus back from the dead.



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21 Mar 2015, 1:29 pm

The Jesus of the Gospels was probably a real historical figure, though nothing is known of his life before he began preaching, and half of the details in the Gospels is fiction. He was a Jewish apocalypticist, that is, he believed that very soon after the time he was speaking God was going to wipe away the old world order and establish a "kingdom of God" on Earth. He preached radical pacifism, voluntary poverty, and giving away all your possessions in preparation for the imminent destruction of the then-existing order.

He was crucified because both the Romans and the local authorities viewed him as a threat. Several others of the apostles ended up being crucified as well, eventually, so there's no reason to ask why they weren't. In ancient Rome, as today, the government was mainly concerned with political threats, which Jesus, with his large following was.

The religion of Christianity as we know it today was invented by Paul with only a few minor references to the philosophy taught by Jesus. In Pauline Trinitarianism, the most basic teachings of Jesus are ignored, in favor of an over-riding demand for adherents to believe that Jesus was God, that he died, and was resurrected. Pauline Christianity was the first religion in the history of the world to place importance on belief. All earlier religions demanded certain rituals, such as burning incense in honor of the gods. But Paul demanded that his followers believe in Jesus, though they didn't have to obey Jesus's teachings.

Modern Christianity was then institutionalized by Constantine, who swept away the last vestiges of Jesus from Christianity. Constantine made it permissible to be wealthy and even to go to war and kill in the name of Jesus, who was adamant against both. From then on, there was a sharp divide between Christianity and what I call Jesusism, or following the teachings of Jesus.

There were many Christianities in the first few centuries (gnostics, Marcionites, Ebionites, etc.) but the Pauline Trinitarians eliminated all of them.

There are also many scriptures from the time, many of them 100% fictional. (The Bible is only about 50% fictional.) The Bible, of course, is just the collection of those scriptures selected by church authorities as being consistent with their own beliefs. A few of the books in the New Testament were most probably not written by who they claim. If you search ancient documents, you can find some to support pretty much whatever belief system you like, so there is no "correct" or "incorrect" Bible. Anyone who invents a church gets to select which books they want to use for their church, and that's what the Christian Church fathers did.

Has half the Jesus story never been told? Even Bible-thumpers will say that more than half has never been told since there is no record of his early life other than a number of obviously fictional "Childhood Gospels."

As for the Gnostics, they were as wacko as the Trinitarians, but with their own very different wackiness.



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21 Mar 2015, 2:16 pm

I have an alternative possibility. All the spiritualism in the New Testament was due to the survivors of the crucifixion. They gathered in groups and discussed topics of the day, one of which was this idea of the apocalypse and salvation. Salvation and mercy are prominent themes in the lives of the tortured and pretty much we are talking about a time when the state pretty much tortured a whole class of people so they had to find ways to cope with this reality. Spirituality was one way since they didn't have television. The Romans kept churning out more and more blood lust, particularly in the circuses.

No doubt Nero was dismayed at the response of the lower, slave class and plebs after their wooden structures burned. Last thing he wanted was disgruntled, petulant commoners showing up to hassle the Senators and upper class about the structures that were lost in the fire so he just threw them in the circus and said, there, you want the same? to the rest of them to keep them from acting out, venting their frustrations due to the fire. It's very unlikely they were in fact Christians since very few were in Rome at the time. It was like this was an underground movement in the slave population, perhaps perpetuated by those directly affected by the crucified, such as gladiators, slaves, the survivors of those who broke the law and were either slaves or of the provinces. Roman citizens were spared such fate until Tiberius came along and slaughtered an untold amount when he feared they would turn on him. So imagine how shocked they were that Romans were killed. Capital punishment was not a popular option among the citizens of Rome even though there were years know as The Republic where people pretty much savaged each other daily to put themselves in power.

It is more than easy for me to see how a Crucifixion Cult could emerge in such an environment and I would not be surprised in the least if it did since this was how people coped with their lives in many instances back then. They joined cults of various kinds and such cults had a variety of practices, some involving mutilation.

The Crucifixion Cult would have fixated on the act of Crucifixion and in Catholicism in particular, that does appear to be the case.



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21 Mar 2015, 3:32 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I have an alternative possibility. All the spiritualism in the New Testament was due to the survivors of the crucifixion. They gathered in groups and discussed topics of the day, one of which was this idea of the apocalypse and salvation. Salvation and mercy are prominent themes in the lives of the tortured and pretty much we are talking about a time when the state pretty much tortured a whole class of people so they had to find ways to cope with this reality. Spirituality was one way since they didn't have television. The Romans kept churning out more and more blood lust, particularly in the circuses.

No doubt Nero was dismayed at the response of the lower, slave class and plebs after their wooden structures burned. Last thing he wanted was disgruntled, petulant commoners showing up to hassle the Senators and upper class about the structures that were lost in the fire so he just threw them in the circus and said, there, you want the same? to the rest of them to keep them from acting out, venting their frustrations due to the fire. It's very unlikely they were in fact Christians since very few were in Rome at the time. It was like this was an underground movement in the slave population, perhaps perpetuated by those directly affected by the crucified, such as gladiators, slaves, the survivors of those who broke the law and were either slaves or of the provinces. Roman citizens were spared such fate until Tiberius came along and slaughtered an untold amount when he feared they would turn on him. So imagine how shocked they were that Romans were killed. Capital punishment was not a popular option among the citizens of Rome even though there were years know as The Republic where people pretty much savaged each other daily to put themselves in power.

It is more than easy for me to see how a Crucifixion Cult could emerge in such an environment and I would not be surprised in the least if it did since this was how people coped with their lives in many instances back then. They joined cults of various kinds and such cults had a variety of practices, some involving mutilation.

The Crucifixion Cult would have fixated on the act of Crucifixion and in Catholicism in particular, that does appear to be the case.


Raised in a Catholic Church from early childhood, I can certainly attest to the fact THAT until I went back there recently, BEFORE it was more like a funeral than any message of REAL EMOTIONAL hope.

That's changed thank goodness, as room is now being provided increasingly, for simply living in balance as natural EMOTIONAL DRIVING HUMAN beings WILL DO IF TRULY SET FREE IN NATURE.

THERE IS still much more room needed AND TO GO; but it appears that things are going in a positive direction now, for this largest denomination of Christian church, in the entire world, overall.

You have a good point here ANA, AS TRULY the Catholic Church, historically, has been one of 'purgatory', human suffering, MISERY, and pain, moreover, than any frigging 'GOOD NEWS' LIKE HUMANS ARE BORN INNATELY AS CHILDREN OF GOD, AS WHAT ONE WOULD HOPE 'A' 'REAL' JESUS AND OR CHRIST WOULD AND WILL SAY, AS ULTIMATE TRUTH IN HUMAN AND GOD SHARED NATURAL LIFE.


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21 Mar 2015, 3:57 pm

aghogday wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I have an alternative possibility. All the spiritualism in the New Testament was due to the survivors of the crucifixion. They gathered in groups and discussed topics of the day, one of which was this idea of the apocalypse and salvation. Salvation and mercy are prominent themes in the lives of the tortured and pretty much we are talking about a time when the state pretty much tortured a whole class of people so they had to find ways to cope with this reality. Spirituality was one way since they didn't have television. The Romans kept churning out more and more blood lust, particularly in the circuses.

No doubt Nero was dismayed at the response of the lower, slave class and plebs after their wooden structures burned. Last thing he wanted was disgruntled, petulant commoners showing up to hassle the Senators and upper class about the structures that were lost in the fire so he just threw them in the circus and said, there, you want the same? to the rest of them to keep them from acting out, venting their frustrations due to the fire. It's very unlikely they were in fact Christians since very few were in Rome at the time. It was like this was an underground movement in the slave population, perhaps perpetuated by those directly affected by the crucified, such as gladiators, slaves, the survivors of those who broke the law and were either slaves or of the provinces. Roman citizens were spared such fate until Tiberius came along and slaughtered an untold amount when he feared they would turn on him. So imagine how shocked they were that Romans were killed. Capital punishment was not a popular option among the citizens of Rome even though there were years know as The Republic where people pretty much savaged each other daily to put themselves in power.

It is more than easy for me to see how a Crucifixion Cult could emerge in such an environment and I would not be surprised in the least if it did since this was how people coped with their lives in many instances back then. They joined cults of various kinds and such cults had a variety of practices, some involving mutilation.

The Crucifixion Cult would have fixated on the act of Crucifixion and in Catholicism in particular, that does appear to be the case.


Raised in a Catholic Church from early childhood, I can certainly attest to the fact THAT until I went back there recently, BEFORE it was more like a funeral than any message of REAL EMOTIONAL hope.

That's changed thank goodness, as room is now being provided increasingly, for simply living in balance as natural EMOTIONAL DRIVING HUMAN beings WILL DO IF TRULY SET FREE IN NATURE.

THERE IS still much more room needed AND TO GO; but it appears that things are going in a positive direction now, for this largest denomination of Christian church, in the entire world, overall.

You have a good point here ANA, AS TRULY the Catholic Church, historically, has been one of 'purgatory', human suffering, MISERY, and pain, moreover, than any frigging 'GOOD NEWS' LIKE HUMANS ARE BORN INNATELY AS CHILDREN OF GOD, AS WHAT ONE WOULD HOPE 'A' 'REAL' JESUS AND OR CHRIST WOULD AND WILL SAY, AS ULTIMATE TRUTH IN HUMAN AND GOD SHARED NATURAL LIFE.


The Christos idea is one of liberation from the pain endured during the crucifixion and to be reborn into an everlasting state of divinity. You are free from all pain and you will return to help others. Christos is light and liberation. That is the original gnostic interpretation. He was brought "in the flesh" or as a man later and then he became one of the crucified so he could tell of their horrible fate, relate it to people and immortalize it so no one can forget it happened not just to a few but a multitude. He challenges everyone to be more sensitive to those around them. Christos is about compassion, mercy, sensitivity, grace. All of these are antidotes to cruelty.

This is what the anointed one said to those first "believers" who were all so saddened by it all. It was a message of hope to the hopeless.

This is why I wonder if Christos is really a human and not an idea of how to deal with human suffering sent by "the Father" which is God. Christos appears in time of intense human suffering.

What is the revelation St Paul had. He experienced Christos (idea) and he asked, "Why do you persecute me? You are only hurting yourself." Which is really a question to the culture that surrounded him. Why does the culture revolve around persecuting others? It only hurts society.

Pretty much the image of Christos being crucified is like saying to the crucified, "Don't worry, God is with you and God has gone through this, too."

Christos was sent specifically to help humans with this crisis, The Crisis of Crucifixion.



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21 Mar 2015, 4:24 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I have an alternative possibility. All the spiritualism in the New Testament was due to the survivors of the crucifixion. They gathered in groups and discussed topics of the day, one of which was this idea of the apocalypse and salvation. Salvation and mercy are prominent themes in the lives of the tortured and pretty much we are talking about a time when the state pretty much tortured a whole class of people so they had to find ways to cope with this reality. Spirituality was one way since they didn't have television. The Romans kept churning out more and more blood lust, particularly in the circuses.

No doubt Nero was dismayed at the response of the lower, slave class and plebs after their wooden structures burned. Last thing he wanted was disgruntled, petulant commoners showing up to hassle the Senators and upper class about the structures that were lost in the fire so he just threw them in the circus and said, there, you want the same? to the rest of them to keep them from acting out, venting their frustrations due to the fire. It's very unlikely they were in fact Christians since very few were in Rome at the time. It was like this was an underground movement in the slave population, perhaps perpetuated by those directly affected by the crucified, such as gladiators, slaves, the survivors of those who broke the law and were either slaves or of the provinces. Roman citizens were spared such fate until Tiberius came along and slaughtered an untold amount when he feared they would turn on him. So imagine how shocked they were that Romans were killed. Capital punishment was not a popular option among the citizens of Rome even though there were years know as The Republic where people pretty much savaged each other daily to put themselves in power.

It is more than easy for me to see how a Crucifixion Cult could emerge in such an environment and I would not be surprised in the least if it did since this was how people coped with their lives in many instances back then. They joined cults of various kinds and such cults had a variety of practices, some involving mutilation.

The Crucifixion Cult would have fixated on the act of Crucifixion and in Catholicism in particular, that does appear to be the case.


Raised in a Catholic Church from early childhood, I can certainly attest to the fact THAT until I went back there recently, BEFORE it was more like a funeral than any message of REAL EMOTIONAL hope.

That's changed thank goodness, as room is now being provided increasingly, for simply living in balance as natural EMOTIONAL DRIVING HUMAN beings WILL DO IF TRULY SET FREE IN NATURE.

THERE IS still much more room needed AND TO GO; but it appears that things are going in a positive direction now, for this largest denomination of Christian church, in the entire world, overall.

You have a good point here ANA, AS TRULY the Catholic Church, historically, has been one of 'purgatory', human suffering, MISERY, and pain, moreover, than any frigging 'GOOD NEWS' LIKE HUMANS ARE BORN INNATELY AS CHILDREN OF GOD, AS WHAT ONE WOULD HOPE 'A' 'REAL' JESUS AND OR CHRIST WOULD AND WILL SAY, AS ULTIMATE TRUTH IN HUMAN AND GOD SHARED NATURAL LIFE.


The Christos idea is one of liberation from the pain endured during the crucifixion and to be reborn into an everlasting state of divinity. You are free from all pain and you will return to help others. Christos is light and liberation. That is the original gnostic interpretation. He was brought "in the flesh" or as a man later and then he became one of the crucified so he could tell of their horrible fate, relate it to people and immortalize it so no one can forget it happened not just to a few but a multitude. He challenges everyone to be more sensitive to those around them. Christos is about compassion, mercy, sensitivity, grace. All of these are antidotes to cruelty.

This is what the anointed one said to those first "believers" who were all so saddened by it all. It was a message of hope to the hopeless.

This is why I wonder if Christos is really a human and not an idea of how to deal with human suffering sent by "the Father" which is God. Christos appears in time of intense human suffering.


NO doubt, 'CHRISTOS' IS AN idea, AND NOT JUST ONE MAN, and generally speaking, A SIMILAR IDEA OF CHRISTOS is presented in almost all religions.

It is an innate human condition that is both cognitive and affective empathy to be a true hero and to help other folks avoid pain and suffering; even laying down one's life, if need be, TO RAISE UP OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

Religion and culture, overall, just has different words for THESE KIND OF 'SUPER' heroes, 'then'.

But there are literally millions OF SO-CALLED 'SUPER HEROES', who have done much more than the real person who underlies the myth of Jesus, whomever that is, SIMPLY AS THEY HAVE ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY AND MASS COMMUNICATION.

And truly some of THOSE people have helped in the myth and truth that does 'lie' and tell the truth, in modern versions of Christian religion in text that is revised and does still exist.

Human nature remains, and GOD AS nature, no matter WHAT the metaphors ARE THAT ARE used in different languages of culture and religions to describe and define the similar essence of human nature TRUTH AND LIGHT IN LIVING in harmony with the rest of Nature including humans AKA GOD, per all THAT
IS.

'SADLY', moving away from 'our' naturally connective selves IN PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE DRIVING THE BALANCE OF EMOTIONS AND SENSES with flesh and blood humans and the rest of nature, not only takes 'us' away from these relatively simple Truths AND LIGHT about human nature, IT actually take humans away from even being what they CAN be innately, INSTINCTUALLY, INTUITIVELY evolved to be, as kind sharing creatures, with courage.

AND TRULY THAT REQUIRES NO WRITTEN TEXT TO ATTAIN, IN FULLER HUMAN LOVING, SHARING, enCOURAGing WAYS OF LIFE as children of GOD.

The GOOD NEWS is already in INNATE HUMAN nature, for those who remember what they may have forgotten, as 'NATURAL' human beings, NOT DENIGRATED BY complex written language, and the illusions tHereOF MODERN cultures and religions.

IT'S NOT 'GOOD NEWS' OWNED BY ANY SINGLE HUMAN, EVER.

IN FACT, TO SUGGEST IT IS, per earliest Christian teaching, is ANTI-CHRIST IN WORSHIPPING FLESH INSTEAD OF TRUTH AND LIGHT, WHETHER that comes in three letter words, or FIVE LETTER NAMES, PER THE WORDS 'GOD' AND 'JESUS', OR 'WHATEVER', FOR AN 8 letter word..:)

Essence is Truth AND LIGHT, and that's no 7 letter word, either, @essence..;)


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21 Mar 2015, 4:38 pm

Gnostics do believe, Aghogday, that Christos is something within each individual human - a cosmic consciousness but I am not ruling out an entity of some kind that can appear as flesh, maybe not an actual man, but becomes the image of a man somehow - like how no one knows what Jesus looks like, when or where he was born, yet he is presented to us in such a horrific way. That is the traditional rendering of Jesus, which is pretty much a generic Hebrew/Greek name and we see it in Latin cultures, too. Jesus is translated into more than one language but means the same thing, Joshua and Yeshua from Hebrew, and the name's meaning is "God saves" which is what we see when Christos has been liberated from the cross in the resurrection story.

The Cosmic idea in this particular instance, and in all instances where mankind chooses to be unnecessarily brutal, is, to become more sensitive, kinder, tolerant, to show mercy to others living beings, to be forgiving. There's always the excuse, but if I do that, the other guy won't and I will just look weak while he stays strong. The key is for everyone to heed the Christos, not just a few individuals. We all show the same qualities and none of us appear weak.



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21 Mar 2015, 5:07 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Gnostics do believe, Aghogday, that Christos is something within each individual human - a cosmic consciousness but I am not ruling out an entity of some kind that can appear as flesh, maybe not an actual man, but becomes the image of a man somehow - like how no one knows what Jesus looks like, when or where he was born, yet he is presented to us in such a horrific way. That is the traditional rendering of Jesus, which is pretty much a generic Hebrew/Greek name and we see it in Latin cultures, too. Jesus is translated into more than one language but means the same thing, Joshua and Yeshua from Hebrew, and the name's meaning is "God saves" which is what we see when Christos has been liberated from the cross in the resurrection story.

The Cosmic idea in this particular instance, and in all instances where mankind chooses to be unnecessarily brutal, is, to become more sensitive, kinder, tolerant, to show mercy to others living beings, to be forgiving. There's always the excuse, but if I do that, the other guy won't and I will just look weak while he stays strong. The key is for everyone to heed the Christos, not just a few individuals. We all show the same qualities and none of us appear weak.


I agree, and truly I'm not so big, to rule out anything in life.

Humility truly expressed, in admitting one doesn't know everything,

is a valuable human attribute as well..:)


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