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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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18 Mar 2015, 9:12 pm

I know some people think it's all an elaborate fictional tale that has no basis in reality, but let's wonder for a second it Jesus is a real person, a rabbi, which is certainly believable, who traveled around talking about spiritual matters and he collected a band of followers who believed his messages, and these could have been Messiahists who believed a Messiah was prophesied to be born and deliver God's people out of the Romans and allow the Jews to govern themselves. The Romans and Jewish ruling class in Jerusalem accused him of treason and had him sentenced to be crucified so the story of his crucifixion was eventually recorded and you can read about it in the Gospels.

Now what I wonder is, why is it, only Jesus was crucified? It doesn't make sense at all which is why I suspect there is much more to the story than we are allowed to read and I think that's a real shame and disservice to all people who follow the Christian faith today. They are deprived of even the most basic accuracy about what truly happened to the Jesus movement. I suspect there could have been more than one person who was crucified and that Peter was perhaps, on the remote fringes, all the ones closest to Jesus might have very well been crucified with him. Peter escaped with his life because he was on the fringes, not in the inner most circle. Of course this is mere speculation but it is all I am left with since I cannot go and look at info amassed from reliable sources.

This is why I like the Emperor Claudius who wrote about the Romans and the Judio-Claudian dynasty, for all his many flaws, at least when he wrote history he included so much and was said to be really thorough but what he wrote didn't make it, either.

There are preconceived notions about who Claudius was but we are dealing with someone who was pretty much the ridicule of his family, was hidden away as to not embarrass them, managed to survive some the most brutal Roman Emperors in history, all the while researching and documenting what was happening around him, even minutia and gossip only to have it lost to time. He considered himself a true historian first and foremost.



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18 Mar 2015, 9:36 pm

Ahh ... speculation ... almost as much fun as an outright lie!



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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18 Mar 2015, 9:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
Ahh ... speculation ... almost as much fun as an outright lie!

But I admit it is speculation on my part, I don't present it as my revised therefore correct version of history. It is speculation and nothing more. I am not telling anyone they must believe it and replace what they have read or seen with this. It's just something to consider and to think about. What I wrote about Claudius is not speculation. He wrote history and it was lost and sources say his history involved a lot of info that the ruling class did not think should be included in anything written about them.



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19 Mar 2015, 5:38 am

well, you are right, there is a lot more to the story. the actual bible is at least 4 times as large as the King James (on simular print). if you include the gospels, you get up to 40 times at big.

the character "Jesus" is most likely a compound of several messiah/prophets that ran around in those days, just like most of the bible stories and other characters are (many old 'religions' in mesopotamia have stories like those in the bible, differing only on details, like the flood stories).

i know it is herisy, but try and watch Monty Pythons' "Life of Brian", which explains the time in which jesus (allegedly) lived, based on non-biblical historical documents. yes, it is humor and satire, but in its core, it's more factual than you'd expect.



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19 Mar 2015, 6:25 pm

My speculation,
First the facts
1. Jesus was primarily Jewish.
2. The area and time around Jesus knew about Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc.
3. slightly speculative but most likely true, Jesus was interested in religion and philosophy.
4. There are many parallels between what Jesus taught and Greek philosphy and Buddhism.
Speculation,
Jesus was primarily Jewish but co-opted parts of greek philosophy and Buddhism. In other words gnostic.
Luke 17:21 is very gnostic as much of the new testiment is.
Later, Jesu's gnostic teachings were surpressed ( nag hammadi etc) because conventional christianity facilitaed the elite's agenda.
A bruacracy was created. King-pope-lord-serf that cemented power. Of course Christ's original teaching that God is wiyhin has to be eradicated. Why serve the king when God is within you?
I think that conventional Christianity is the opposite of what Christ taught.
Ps: I am using a tablet. Blame my big fat fingers gor spelling and grammatical errors! :D


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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19 Mar 2015, 6:58 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
My speculation,
First the facts
1. Jesus was primarily Jewish.
2. The area and time around Jesus knew about Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc.
3. slightly speculative but most likely true, Jesus was interested in religion and philosophy.
4. There are many parallels between what Jesus taught and Greek philosphy and Buddhism.
Speculation,
Jesus was primarily Jewish but co-opted parts of greek philosophy and Buddhism. In other words gnostic.
Luke 17:21 is very gnostic as much of the new testiment is.
Later, Jesu's gnostic teachings were surpressed ( nag hammadi etc) because conventional christianity facilitaed the elite's agenda.
A bruacracy was created. King-pope-lord-serf that cemented power. Of course Christ's original teaching that God is wiyhin has to be eradicated. Why serve the king when God is within you?
I think that conventional Christianity is the opposite of what Christ taught.
Ps: I am using a tablet. Blame my big fat fingers gor spelling and grammatical errors! :D

Thanks for replying. I have been thinking about this all day and what I wonder now, which I haven't previously because I thought along the same lines as you, a philosopher/rabbi who started out as one of John the Baptist's disciples but now I am beginning to wonder if Jesus is actually a combined experience of many men who were crucified during the time Rome occupied the area and the New Testament reflects the experiences of the survivors. It's like a record of these people who met and were part of this healing culture, who had experienced their loved ones crucified. They didn't have therapy back then but they did meet together in order to deal with their pain and this is how Christian gnosticism started and that eventually led to the church. If you know the history of the church, it is so focused on grizzly events it seems logical it has it's roots in these post crucifixion cults and it might reflect on the experience of the crucified. Anytime non citizens of Rome acted up, the Romans used crucifixion as a punishment and example to others, so they might behave in the future. It was a way to scare them into submission.

This is what leads me to believe Christianity does, indeed, have some of it's origins in the Third Servile War:

The crucifixion of Spartacus' army[edit]

Emperor Trajan built a deviation of Via Appia. This is a tract of Via Appia Traiana near Egnatia.

The column in Brindisi, marking the end of the Via Appia.
Main article: Spartacus
In 73 BC, a slave revolt (known as the Third Servile War) under the ex-gladiator of Capua, Spartacus, began against the Romans. Slavery accounted for roughly every third person in Italy.

Spartacus defeated many Roman armies in a conflict that lasted for over two years. While trying to escape from Italy at Brundisium he unwittingly moved his forces into the historic trap in Apulia/Calabria. The Romans were well acquainted with the region. Legions were brought home from abroad and Spartacus was pinned between armies.

On his defeat the Romans judged that the slaves had forfeited their right to live. In 71 BC, 6,000 slaves were crucified along the 200-kilometer (120 mi) Via Appia from Rome to Capua.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way ... us.27_army

This event could have very well been the beginning.

Imagine traveling the Via Appia, which was the busiest road to Rome, pretty much because it was the only one, only to see 6000 crucified gladiators and other slaves along the way. The Romans left them for all the world to see so others would be discouraged to rise against the Roman world. Would have made quite an impression.



Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 19 Mar 2015, 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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19 Mar 2015, 7:00 pm

My speculation is the "Jesus" movement was more a political rather than religious movement, but religion was the political mechanism.

My basis is that it wasn't to the only to use the Messiah angle, nor the only resurrection story at the time. It just happen to take off where other movements did.

I think viewing Jesus as a modern day Rabbi is somewhat misleading, early Christianity was designed of subversive to be the culture of the time which was different from modern Judaism, then it was local rulers hand in hand with Romain rule.



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19 Mar 2015, 7:03 pm

He is presented as rabbinical in the Gospels, spending time in temples and the first born son.



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19 Mar 2015, 7:20 pm

Here's a link to The Third Servile War even though it is Wiki. Most people know about Spartacus from Cinemax, I think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Servile_War

And since these survivors were relatives of those viewed as traitors, it's easy to see why their relatives would have been persecuted for banding together in groups and possibly labeled rebels themselves.



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19 Mar 2015, 8:10 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
My speculation,
First the facts
1. Jesus was primarily Jewish.
2. The area and time around Jesus knew about Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc.
3. slightly speculative but most likely true, Jesus was interested in religion and philosophy.
4. There are many parallels between what Jesus taught and Greek philosphy and Buddhism.
Speculation,
Jesus was primarily Jewish but co-opted parts of greek philosophy and Buddhism. In other words gnostic.
Luke 17:21 is very gnostic as much of the new testiment is.
Later, Jesu's gnostic teachings were surpressed ( nag hammadi etc) because conventional christianity facilitaed the elite's agenda.
A bruacracy was created. King-pope-lord-serf that cemented power. Of course Christ's original teaching that God is wiyhin has to be eradicated. Why serve the king when God is within you?
I think that conventional Christianity is the opposite of what Christ taught.
Ps: I am using a tablet. Blame my big fat fingers gor spelling and grammatical errors! :D

Thanks for replying. I have been thinking about this all day and what I wonder now, which I haven't previously because I thought along the same lines as you, a philosopher/rabbi who started out as one of John the Baptist's disciples but now I am beginning to wonder if Jesus is actually a combined experience of many men who were crucified during the time Rome occupied the area and the New Testament reflects the experiences of the survivors. It's like a record of these people who met and were part of this healing culture, who had experienced their loved ones crucified. They didn't have therapy back then but they did meet together in order to deal with their pain and this is how Christian gnosticism started and that eventually led to the church. If you know the history of the church, it is so focused on grizzly events it seems logical it has it's roots in these post crucifixion cults and it might reflect on the experience of the crucified. Anytime non citizens of Rome acted up, the Romans used crucifixion as a punishment and example to others, so they might behave in the future. It was a way to scare them into submission.

This is what leads me to believe Christianity does, indeed, have some of it's origins in the Third Servile War:

The crucifixion of Spartacus' army[edit]

Emperor Trajan built a deviation of Via Appia. This is a tract of Via Appia Traiana near Egnatia.

The column in Brindisi, marking the end of the Via Appia.
Main article: Spartacus
In 73 BC, a slave revolt (known as the Third Servile War) under the ex-gladiator of Capua, Spartacus, began against the Romans. Slavery accounted for roughly every third person in Italy.

Spartacus defeated many Roman armies in a conflict that lasted for over two years. While trying to escape from Italy at Brundisium he unwittingly moved his forces into the historic trap in Apulia/Calabria. The Romans were well acquainted with the region. Legions were brought home from abroad and Spartacus was pinned between armies.

On his defeat the Romans judged that the slaves had forfeited their right to live. In 71 BC, 6,000 slaves were crucified along the 200-kilometer (120 mi) Via Appia from Rome to Capua.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way ... us.27_army

This event could have very well been the beginning.

Imagine traveling the Via Appia, which was the busiest road to Rome, pretty much because it was the only one, only to see 6000 crucified gladiators and other slaves along the way. The Romans left them for all the world to see so others would be discouraged to rise against the Roman world. Would have made quite an impression.


What does this have to do with Christianity?

Christ lived in an outer province of the Roman Empire (in Judea), and not in the mother country of Italy (like Spartacus).

_____________

Agree with the above poster: that Jesus was likely a composite. Many guys were wandering around Judea calling themselves "Joshua" (after the Joshua of the Old Testament) at that time. One is even mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud: "a miscreant named Yeshua has been wandering the countryside preaching heresy and practicing black magic.So the authorities hanged him from a tree." This Yeshua even had 9 disciples listed by name. But none of them had names resembling any of the 12 disciples of Christ. Probably there were many rabblerousers doing their thing at the time. Some ended up executed by the locals the local way (by being hanged from trees), and some ended up being executed by the Roman occupiers the Roman way (by being nailed to a cross). The one we remember may be a composite of more than one.

Also have thought along the lines of the other poster: that Christ was a Jew influenced by ideas from beyond the horizon of Judea (he lived in a more cosmopolitan Hellenistic Judea than did any of the figures in the OT). At some point he may have sat at the feet of Persian Zoroastrian priests (known as "magi") which would explain both the folktale about the gift of the magi, and would explain how Zoroastrian notions of "heaven", "hell", and "a day of judgement" got grafted onto the largely Jewish trunk of the tree that became Christianity. Like Wittgenstien said -Nag Hammadi also even shows some evidence of Buddhist influence in what became a heretical form of early Christianity.



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19 Mar 2015, 8:38 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
My speculation,
First the facts
1. Jesus was primarily Jewish.
2. The area and time around Jesus knew about Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc.
3. slightly speculative but most likely true, Jesus was interested in religion and philosophy.
4. There are many parallels between what Jesus taught and Greek philosphy and Buddhism.
Speculation,
Jesus was primarily Jewish but co-opted parts of greek philosophy and Buddhism. In other words gnostic.
Luke 17:21 is very gnostic as much of the new testiment is.
Later, Jesu's gnostic teachings were surpressed ( nag hammadi etc) because conventional christianity facilitaed the elite's agenda.
A bruacracy was created. King-pope-lord-serf that cemented power. Of course Christ's original teaching that God is wiyhin has to be eradicated. Why serve the king when God is within you?
I think that conventional Christianity is the opposite of what Christ taught.
Ps: I am using a tablet. Blame my big fat fingers gor spelling and grammatical errors! :D


I agree with this. If people can find the HIGHER power OF GOD within, it doesn't look good for expanding a Roman Empire or a World-Wide organization of Catholic Church OR a myriad of Protestant ones either. YES, IT'S A good way to lose control over the masses of sheep, if they shepherd themselves for independent power, instead of relying on an external organization to spoon-fill a story or myth of some kind, instead.

And yes, at least, I know the power of GOD is within, and truly all the years of Catholic Church shows me the exact opposite of that in a power totally outside of me, as a fairy tale of sorts, and at this point that sure tastes like ANTI-CHRIST TO ME.

That's sad for folks who never find the time or effort to search inside and find the higher power of GOD that I can only hope that folks are gifted with, eventually seek, find, employ, utilize and practice continually, in mind and body balance, as what I have found similar within me to truly move metaphorical mountains of life..:)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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20 Mar 2015, 1:34 am

naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
My speculation,
First the facts
1. Jesus was primarily Jewish.
2. The area and time around Jesus knew about Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc.
3. slightly speculative but most likely true, Jesus was interested in religion and philosophy.
4. There are many parallels between what Jesus taught and Greek philosphy and Buddhism.
Speculation,
Jesus was primarily Jewish but co-opted parts of greek philosophy and Buddhism. In other words gnostic.
Luke 17:21 is very gnostic as much of the new testiment is.
Later, Jesu's gnostic teachings were surpressed ( nag hammadi etc) because conventional christianity facilitaed the elite's agenda.
A bruacracy was created. King-pope-lord-serf that cemented power. Of course Christ's original teaching that God is wiyhin has to be eradicated. Why serve the king when God is within you?
I think that conventional Christianity is the opposite of what Christ taught.
Ps: I am using a tablet. Blame my big fat fingers gor spelling and grammatical errors! :D

Thanks for replying. I have been thinking about this all day and what I wonder now, which I haven't previously because I thought along the same lines as you, a philosopher/rabbi who started out as one of John the Baptist's disciples but now I am beginning to wonder if Jesus is actually a combined experience of many men who were crucified during the time Rome occupied the area and the New Testament reflects the experiences of the survivors. It's like a record of these people who met and were part of this healing culture, who had experienced their loved ones crucified. They didn't have therapy back then but they did meet together in order to deal with their pain and this is how Christian gnosticism started and that eventually led to the church. If you know the history of the church, it is so focused on grizzly events it seems logical it has it's roots in these post crucifixion cults and it might reflect on the experience of the crucified. Anytime non citizens of Rome acted up, the Romans used crucifixion as a punishment and example to others, so they might behave in the future. It was a way to scare them into submission.

This is what leads me to believe Christianity does, indeed, have some of it's origins in the Third Servile War:

The crucifixion of Spartacus' army[edit]

Emperor Trajan built a deviation of Via Appia. This is a tract of Via Appia Traiana near Egnatia.

The column in Brindisi, marking the end of the Via Appia.
Main article: Spartacus
In 73 BC, a slave revolt (known as the Third Servile War) under the ex-gladiator of Capua, Spartacus, began against the Romans. Slavery accounted for roughly every third person in Italy.

Spartacus defeated many Roman armies in a conflict that lasted for over two years. While trying to escape from Italy at Brundisium he unwittingly moved his forces into the historic trap in Apulia/Calabria. The Romans were well acquainted with the region. Legions were brought home from abroad and Spartacus was pinned between armies.

On his defeat the Romans judged that the slaves had forfeited their right to live. In 71 BC, 6,000 slaves were crucified along the 200-kilometer (120 mi) Via Appia from Rome to Capua.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way ... us.27_army

This event could have very well been the beginning.

Imagine traveling the Via Appia, which was the busiest road to Rome, pretty much because it was the only one, only to see 6000 crucified gladiators and other slaves along the way. The Romans left them for all the world to see so others would be discouraged to rise against the Roman world. Would have made quite an impression.


What does this have to do with Christianity?

Christ lived in an outer province of the Roman Empire (in Judea), and not in the mother country of Italy (like Spartacus).

_____________

Agree with the above poster: that Jesus was likely a composite. Many guys were wandering around Judea calling themselves "Joshua" (after the Joshua of the Old Testament) at that time. One is even mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud: "a miscreant named Yeshua has been wandering the countryside preaching heresy and practicing black magic.So the authorities hanged him from a tree." This Yeshua even had 9 disciples listed by name. But none of them had names resembling any of the 12 disciples of Christ. Probably there were many rabblerousers doing their thing at the time. Some ended up executed by the locals the local way (by being hanged from trees), and some ended up being executed by the Roman occupiers the Roman way (by being nailed to a cross). The one we remember may be a composite of more than one.

Also have thought along the lines of the other poster: that Christ was a Jew influenced by ideas from beyond the horizon of Judea (he lived in a more cosmopolitan Hellenistic Judea than did any of the figures in the OT). At some point he may have sat at the feet of Persian Zoroastrian priests (known as "magi") which would explain both the folktale about the gift of the magi, and would explain how Zoroastrian notions of "heaven", "hell", and "a day of judgement" got grafted onto the largely Jewish trunk of the tree that became Christianity. Like Wittgenstien said -Nag Hammadi also even shows some evidence of Buddhist influence in what became a heretical form of early Christianity.

NaturalPlastic, Christianity is pretty much a Roman religion that focuses on a crucifixion with other influences thrown in and nothing written down when "Jesus" was actually living which could be due to Jesus not being one man but the men who were crucified by the Romans. You neglect to take into account the thousands who were crucified and the ones left behind after it happened. Are you going to say all of them were null and void? Do you honestly believe for one second their emotions could not possibly effect the culture? Considering we do not have enough information from when Jesus was actually alive and crucifixion wasn't even mentioned until hundreds of years later, according to AspieOtaku's video, it could be that Jesus was not the one who was actually crucified. If he were, why did it take them so long to even be able to talk about it? There are a lot of unanswered questions that a traveling minister doesn't explain. Most traveling ministers do not end up being crucified. You don't get crucified for mixing greek with Buddhism. Why such a focus on crucifixion? Don't you find it more than curious Jesus would be the only one to be crucified if indeed he were. If you know anything about the Romans it's they didn't stop with just one. They would have wiped them all out, kinda like Darth Sidious. It's just how the Romans were. They hated rebellion with a passion.

Instead of being so narrow minded, consider the possibility. Jesus was pretty much just a crucified man for a long time. It wasn't until the reformation the focus was on the actual written word.

The connection between The Third Servile War and Christianity should be explored since the data we have is pretty much non existence. I mean, they have Jesus being born in the winter while scholars say that is highly unlikely and no one can figure out what this mysterious star was the three wise men saw although there's speculation. It is beginning to look like a collection of stories and prophecies gathered by the survivors of the crucified. In their grief, they could have even fabricated fables of how their loved one, son or husband, came back to life after he died to ease their trauma. People were more apt to say stuff like that at the time. I think it is worthy of investigation since the origins are indeed quite mysterious indeed.

People think of Christianity as this flowery religion with plain surrounds and Bibles but it did not start out as such, not by a long shot. It was a bit like the Roman Arena in its gore and gristle there for a while and stories of suffering martyrs were a plenty. These permeated the Christian cults for who knows how long before The First Council of Nicaea.

Another thing you should wonder, why so many in Rome were Christians and not so many in the middle east where it started? Why is the Vatican in Rome and not in Antioch or somewhere like that? It could easily be in Antioch, couldn't it? Yet, it's in Rome. Rome has been the seat of Christianity for quite some time, hasn't it?



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20 Mar 2015, 2:05 am

There's definitely a lot of unanswered questions considering how Emperor Nero persecuted Christians with a passion which seems highly suspect because these people were just part of a cult of which there were many cults at the time yet they were fervently persecuted. We have Christians in Rome as early as Emperor Nero. It is said Jesus was crucified during the time of Emperor Tiberius but no one has real evidence that is the case and no one knows when Christians first appeared. All of it speculation. There is no actual proof. According to what's in the Gospels, Jesus should have been around later than the time of Tiberius because there is nothing written when Jesus was actually living. It all comes from these people who make claims. So how do you know??? We are all conditioned to accept what is in the Gospels as fact - if we see mentioned places in Judea, Jesus must have been born in the middle east and was Jewish but there's really no proof he even existed but YES we have tons and tons of proof thousands were crucified. So what do you have to say about that??? What side is the compelling physical evidence on? Proof for thousands being crucified or proof that Jesus existed? Before you mock what I type, you tell me where the physical evidence Jesus even existed is? There's much more actual evidence for what I typed than there actually is for the existence of Jesus.
If you are going to dismiss the importance of these harrowing deeds like they are nothing and focus on books that are dubiously written at best instead of the actual real, physical evidence as well as the actual historical record, then you are being thoroughly hoodwinked by revisionists or writers of fictional tales and you are missing out on the reality of what might have actually been the situation.

I certainly hope you will consider and look into what I just typed, NaturalPlastic, because it is worth it.



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20 Mar 2015, 4:11 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
He is presented as rabbinical in the Gospels, spending time in temples and the first born son.


If you want ot get a better idea of the "historical Jesus" read Bart Erhman's "Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" which I have read and highly recommend he has also written "Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, then there is the rebuttal (which I have not yet read) "Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?" The second book from what I understand is a rebuttal of the Erhmans concept of "Jesus who was a man made god by humanity"

But whatever you decide I agree it is a fascinating subject, one that the vast majority of Christians simply refuse to enter into discussion about.


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20 Mar 2015, 4:30 am

Definitely. Most people leave out the part about him risking his life to cross the U.S.-Mexican border smuggled in the back of a filthy pickup truck under a load of cabbages, slaving away for fourteen hours a day as a migrant farmworker, and sharing a tiny apartment with seven other guys and no electricity so that he could afford to send most of his under-the-table wages back home to his family.

Jesus Elodio Gonzalez is an inspiration to us all.



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20 Mar 2015, 5:01 am

starkid wrote:
Definitely. Most people leave out the part about him risking his life to cross the U.S.-Mexican border smuggled in the back of a filthy pickup truck under a load of cabbages, slaving away for fourteen hours a day as a migrant farmworker, and sharing a tiny apartment with seven other guys and no electricity so that he could afford to send most of his under-the-table wages back home to his family.

Jesus Elodio Gonzalez is an inspiration to us all.

That's not the Jesus I meant :oops: