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B19
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20 Mar 2015, 6:19 pm

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... m_the_1900

I am greatly wearied by the hackneyed and predictable slogan that ABA parents use to justify torture of their children. "But it's evidence based!" Another variant is "But it worked". (So did lobotomy, and sometimes I wonder if some of these parents have had one..)

The "evidence based claim" so often used in this naive, parroted way sweeps away all the ethical, scientific and philosophical evaluations and wider considerations that need to be applied to "evidence". It is axiomatic that evidence is only as good as the research design and the motives of the researchers (scientific or political). Tautological designs are not scientific in any sense. Tautology is a big problem in ABA 'research'.

One of the very first questions I think we need to ask is: "Whose evidence?"

The second perhaps is: "Does it meet the many different kinds of scientific measures of validity, especially construct validity".

The third: "Where is the evidence on these different kinds of validity measures?

The fourth: "Were ethical standards of research met (especially informed, unpressured consent of participants).

The fifth is: "Were UN conventions and other human rights obligations adhered to?"

The sixth is: "How does this evidence compare with other evidence which is in the same general discipline, especially contradictory evidence"

The seventh is: "Is reductionism and assumption operating in a circular manner to produce these evidence-based results".

The eighth is Cicero's question: Cui Bono? Who benefits? Science doesn't exist in a vacuum - it is affected and sometimes infected/corrupted by political influences, the morality of the power imbalance of third parties aligning with researchers against powerless children (parents), cultural and social views, and none more so than the "evidence based" ABA "research".

The ninth: Is this research consistent with WHO guidelines?

There are more however this is just to try and illustrate that "evidence based" is not what it is claimed to be - not even in real science..



Hansgrohe
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20 Mar 2015, 8:05 pm

Societal morality over practical morality is basically the driving force. The same was said (and at times, continues to be peddled, sadly) about "homosexual treatment". People deep down knew that the "treatments" for being gay were unethical as all hell (1950s-60s), but nobody was going to surrender the core ideas of what society thought was right at the time in exchange for practical morality, of just letting people be, and making progress.

America is dearly sick with its autism problem. The more it attempts to deny it, the more it will grow.



ScottieKarate
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20 Mar 2015, 8:09 pm

I ask in all seriousness, if not ABA, then what? Do we not attempt to bring the children out of their worlds? Don't we want to teach them the skills necessary to be a productive member of society?



B19
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20 Mar 2015, 8:27 pm

ScottieKarate wrote:
I ask in all seriousness, if not ABA, then what? Do we not attempt to bring the children out of their worlds? Don't we want to teach them the skills necessary to be a productive member of society?


Have you ever watched a professional dog whisperer changing the behaviour of a "previously uncontrollable" animal whose time is running out on death row? I have. I know a psychologist who specialises in this with enormous success. Does he hit the animals? no. Does he give them electric shocks? no. Does he tie them down with restraints? no. So what does he do?
He rewards them for desirable behaviours, (this is a form of behaviorist "shaping" and makes sure that he doesn't act to them in ways they find hostile (eg staring at their eyes). He knows that to win the dogs' trust he has to be 100% consistent in his behaviour to them - no losing his temper, punishing them et al - he has to demonstrate that he can be trusted by them. I know psychologists who have achieved the same with "broken trust" children who act out because of horrendous abuse, betrayal and neglect. Some were no doubt on the spectrum too.

I hope that gives you some food for thought, in all seriousness.

Ps: Who is 'we'? You? You and people who think like you?
You would bring the children "out of their worlds" (I think you mean disengagement?) by very gradually engaging them.
If your agenda is to make autistic children "productive members of society" please directly state that and why you think
this is more important than bringing up a child who feels safe and comfortable in his own skin.
Do you think that parents owe children safety?



B19
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20 Mar 2015, 8:54 pm

Here's a step by step guide for parents of children with autism - training for parents. Please share it with anyone who thinks and advocates on a "TINA" basis (There Is No Alternative) as justification for putting their children in the hands of ABA practitioners:

http://www.cigna.com/assets/docs/behavi ... b-2014.pdf



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21 Mar 2015, 7:00 am

ScottieKarate wrote:
I ask in all seriousness, if not ABA, then what? Do we not attempt to bring the children out of their worlds? Don't we want to teach them the skills necessary to be a productive member of society?

I think this is the crux of this issue ^ "then what?"
And you've answered your own question, ScottieKarate, we can leave them to be in whatever world they find themselves in. It's okay. Nts seem to disregard this as a viable option. I don't understand why. I guess it's a fundamental disrespect for the autistic experience.



Hansgrohe
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21 Mar 2015, 11:38 am

Autistic libertarianism. I like the way you're thinking.



androbot01
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21 Mar 2015, 1:15 pm

Just don't understand why a natural way of behaving is so intolerable to so many.



Hansgrohe
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21 Mar 2015, 5:22 pm

^Same rhetoric used by women's rights and gay rights. As long as it is antagonistic to society, it cannot be accepted.



ScottieKarate
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25 Mar 2015, 3:44 pm

I'm torn on this. To put my son into therapies or not? I don't want to change the way that he is. He is a pure soul, and is generally happy. But would he want me to get him help with his meltdowns? Would he want me to try to help him become better in social environments?



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25 Mar 2015, 9:13 pm

ScottieKarate wrote:
I'm torn on this. To put my son into therapies or not? I don't want to change the way that he is. He is a pure soul, and is generally happy. But would he want me to get him help with his meltdowns? Would he want me to try to help him become better in social environments?


Your true educators and molders disclose the true original meaning and the basic material of your being, which is something quite incapable of being educated or molded, and to which access is in any case difficult since it is fettered and chained as it is. Your educators can be nothing more than your liberators. And that is the secret of all education: it does not provide artificial limbs, false noses or eye-glasses - on the contrary what could provide these is merely pseudo-education. Education is rather liberation, a rooting out of all weeds, rubbish and vermin from around the buds of the plants, a radiation of light and warmth, a loving, whispering fall of night rain.


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B19
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25 Mar 2015, 9:27 pm

He would possibly want you to mentor him yourself, perhaps with the help of peer mentors later on, support and encourage his islands of competence and most of all accept him for who he is, combined with affection, trust, approval. If you are assuming that he wants to be a social person - that's a big judgment to make. Socialising may never be his thing, because it may be he would rather pursue knowledge, self-development, creativity etc or simply prefer life as an introverted person. You are making too big an assumption that NT functioning is automatically right for your son. Do you think that it helps lefthanded people to be forced to use their right hand only? Or to force introverts to be extroverted?

Imagine if Einstein's parents had forced him to turn into a social being instead of letting him find his own strengths! My caregivers wanted me to be a housewife, and tried to impose that as a sole destiny on me. I was by nature an academic! Parents don't always know what is best for their children. Many assume that they do. Children want parents to honour them for their own unique personalities and strengths. You can teach your son the minimum level of social skills everyone needs - manners etc and guide him through difficult of challenging social situations as they arise.

You task is to help this child be his best self - not fit him into a pattern that doesn't fit him.



ScottieKarate
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26 Mar 2015, 2:36 pm

B19 wrote:
He would possibly want you to mentor him yourself, perhaps with the help of peer mentors later on, support and encourage his islands of competence and most of all accept him for who he is, combined with affection, trust, approval. If you are assuming that he wants to be a social person - that's a big judgment to make. Socialising may never be his thing, because it may be he would rather pursue knowledge, self-development, creativity etc or simply prefer life as an introverted person. You are making too big an assumption that NT functioning is automatically right for your son. Do you think that it helps lefthanded people to be forced to use their right hand only? Or to force introverts to be extroverted?

Imagine if Einstein's parents had forced him to turn into a social being instead of letting him find his own strengths! My caregivers wanted me to be a housewife, and tried to impose that as a sole destiny on me. I was by nature an academic! Parents don't always know what is best for their children. Many assume that they do. Children want parents to honour them for their own unique personalities and strengths. You can teach your son the minimum level of social skills everyone needs - manners etc and guide him through difficult of challenging social situations as they arise.

You task is to help this child be his best self - not fit him into a pattern that doesn't fit him.

Thank you for your response. My son does appear to want to be social. I know I'm making assumptions here, but are you also working a bit off the assumption that he won't want to be social? I'm not going to push it on him if we find out he doesn't want to be social. However, in the case that he does want to be social but doesn't know how, he can possibly learn a lot of skills at age 2 that can make social interactions easier for him.

He's also come a long way with self-injurious behavior. His mother and I couldn't help him with that, but his ABA therapist has already had a major impact on this.

Have you had other negative experiences with ABA? I'd love to hear about it. If it isn't good for my child, I certainly invite all information possible. Thank you!



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28 Mar 2015, 11:37 am

I think ABA means different things to lot of people. One person may have one view on it and another person may have a different view on it but they both are not on the same page about what ABA is so assumptions are made. One kid may want friends let's say but in order to do that, that kid needs some social skills like turning taking, waiting his turn, being flexible in play by letting other kids decide what they want to play with, not be bossy and dictate everyone around him so the mother tries to teach him those things but another autistic person may have no interest in friends lets say and desires none so that person assumes the mother is forcing therapy on her son and trying to change him because the autistic person thinks her son has no interest in friends and assumes the kid isn't social. Even Temple Grandin thinks all ASD kids need to learn some basic social skills because those are needed in the future for employment and even to have employment that matches their special interest even if they are self employed in the future. I don't think all ABA is abusive and it's not like the 1960's anymore where treatment was abusive and I don't think all ABA is eight hours a day, that seems excessive and I never had therapy 8 hours a day. I am not sure how often my mom worked with me and how long. She had a home to take care of and two other kids. When I first heard of ABA in a book, it sounded like therapy at home so I thought all ABA was like that so it would be baffling when I would see criticism about it. I loved Speech therapy as a kid and I loved my first group therapy I attended and I liked occupational therapy and I remember loving these pictures and telling stories from them so to see hate about it was baffling.

Whenever I see an argument about ABA, I often think people are arguing about different things.


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28 Mar 2015, 12:54 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I think ABA means different things to lot of people. One person may have one view on it and another person may have a different view on it but they both are not on the same page about what ABA is so assumptions are made. One kid may want friends let's say but in order to do that, that kid needs some social skills like turning taking, waiting his turn, being flexible in play by letting other kids decide what they want to play with, not be bossy and dictate everyone around him so the mother tries to teach him those things but another autistic person may have no interest in friends lets say and desires none so that person assumes the mother is forcing therapy on her son and trying to change him because the autistic person thinks her son has no interest in friends and assumes the kid isn't social. Even Temple Grandin thinks all ASD kids need to learn some basic social skills because those are needed in the future for employment and even to have employment that matches their special interest even if they are self employed in the future. I don't think all ABA is abusive and it's not like the 1960's anymore where treatment was abusive and I don't think all ABA is eight hours a day, that seems excessive and I never had therapy 8 hours a day. I am not sure how often my mom worked with me and how long. She had a home to take care of and two other kids. When I first heard of ABA in a book, it sounded like therapy at home so I thought all ABA was like that so it would be baffling when I would see criticism about it. I loved Speech therapy as a kid and I loved my first group therapy I attended and I liked occupational therapy and I remember loving these pictures and telling stories from them so to see hate about it was baffling.

Whenever I see an argument about ABA, I often think people are arguing about different things.


Except for the Judge Rotenberg center it is not nearly as bad as the 1960's. But that does not make it good. Wanted social skills can be taught in other ways besides behavior modification of punishment and rewards. Even all rewards is putting on a smiley face on the belief something is wrong and needs to be corrected. That wrong is Autistic behaviors. Some Autism associated especially violent stuff is wrong. Again the results making it gold standard are questionable and long term results well into adulthood are not known.

Nothing is 100% right or wrong but when you look at it's roots, the language used no matter how non-offending they try and make it (and often they don't even try) the goal is to intercept autism way of being and the the good bad traits associated and as early to rescue/recover the person or make their behavior as NT as possible. An that overall is a bad thing.

The recommended ABA by the organization that sets a lot of the agenda for Autism policy is 25-40 hours a week for ages 1-3.
Autism Speaks Applied Behavior Analysis Webpage

Assuming a 5 day week is 5-8 hours a day for ages 1-3. IMHO 5-8 hours of no "me" time could be torturous for the kid if done wrong at worst, at best it is inhibiting a lot of natural growth which is the whole idea because kids brains are "sponges (rapidly take in and learn information)" at these ages.


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28 Mar 2015, 1:59 pm

But I loved rewards when I was a kid, that is what gave me a learning attitude. If I said a sound for a word, I got an M&M. I loved getting speech buck in speech therapy to trade in for prizes and I loved earning poker chips in group therapy to trade in for prizes. but the second group therapy had no reward system so I hated that class. I guess not all kids love them and to me it was all a game and I couldn't get enough of it and I wished I had more so I could earn it faster and get prizes quicker.


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