Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

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Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?
Yes, always from the beginning of time. 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
No, only since before the Civil War. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
No, only since 1880's (Gilded Age and high inequality). 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
No, only since 1920's (rise of urban growth and crime). 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
No, only since 1960's (breakdown of traditional values). 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
No, only since 1990's (rise of the internet/cell phones). 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
No, only since some other time period. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 31

AngelRho
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27 Mar 2015, 4:13 pm

sly279 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
sly279 wrote:
meant i don't read books. now if it was cuddling up to a good show/movie or video games. or maybe even board games. that'd be ok.

In other words, you just care about what you want, not what she wants.

I mean…it's ok to have preferences. You can look for any type of woman you want. If you don't like women who keep their noses in books all the time, that's your business.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that there's a difference between out-going party girls who respond to men in certain (unhealthy) ways and girls I'd consider "safe," i.e. girls who'll dump you the first time some other guy says "hello." I'll take safe and boring over fun and unstable any day.


I'd rather have a safe girl. no I do care about what the woman wants probably too much. i just would prefer someone with similar interests, or she'll be upset i don't read and mad i play games. I'll find i have nothing to talk to her or do with her. the women I've seen who are super into reading a lot are book snobs, they look down on anyone who doesn't read a lot too as being stupid and inferior. no thanks

Nothing wrong with having preferences. It's just that having the right kinds of preferences can make the difference between success and failure. I have preferences, too--she has to be of the same race, at least be in the same ballpark on religion (ideally evangelical conservative, pre-milennial dispensationalist, trinitarian, and not believe only people in her denomination are going to heaven), and she needs to have a strong musical background. Beyond that, there's a lot of room for variety.

I DON'T want someone who is a carbon copy of myself. I mean, that would be cool, but it's not what I expect.

So while preferences do narrow the dating pool, you're ok as long as you don't narrow things so far that you exclude everyone.

That said, though, a certain type of girl is going to be more difficult to find in some situations than others.

I'm not saying bookworms fit a certain mold or ideal…I'm just saying you're more likely to find someone "safe" among those kinds of women. I don't think I've ever met a book snob.

sly279 wrote:
women don't belong to men, if she got divorced then shes not with him anymore. you'd rather she stay with guy til he killed her?

No, of course not. She should get away from an abuser. But that doesn't change the fact that she made a promise.

Suppose I put myself in that situation…my wife is violent, threatens me and beats up on the kids. I wouldn't divorce her. I'd either have her committed or arrested. I'd protect my family at all costs.

I'd only divorce my wife in very, VERY exceptional circumstances. I'd possibly sue for abandonment if that came up. The reason I'd sue her for walking out on us is if I do nothing, she could just claim we've been living apart for so long and she'd get an uncontested divorce by default. Um…NO. You damage this family, you're going to pay for it. I'd sue her for adultery and the man she's with for loss of affection. I MIGHT forgive her for adultery. But if she gets pregnant, the kid's got to go. Women have a hard time giving up kids for adoption, so we most likely wouldn't be getting back together. I mean, for ME to go the divorce route, it would have to be catastrophically BAD. For me to cut you loose, you have to abysmally mess up. Seriously. You'd have to work hard to get beyond my grace.

And you know what? EVEN IF my wife backed me into that corner, EVEN IF I were forced to sue for divorce on grounds…I'd never be with another woman. I'd still be loyal to her. Because I made a promise, and her mistakes don't make those promises go away.

And that's why I'd never do anything long-term with a divorced woman. I especially would never marry one. It's inconsistent with what I believe about marriage, not to mention the problems I already mentioned about divorced women.



The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Mar 2015, 5:17 pm

Long posts...this thread is now populated by long posts....

zzzZZZZ



AngelRho
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27 Mar 2015, 5:27 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Long posts...this thread is now populated by long posts....

zzzZZZZ

My favorite kind. ;)

Here, you can borrow my down pillow.



Who_Am_I
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27 Mar 2015, 7:13 pm

Quote:
No, of course not. She should get away from an abuser. But that doesn't change the fact that she made a promise.


Promises are void if abuse is happening.


_________________
Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I ! !! !
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I


AngelRho
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27 Mar 2015, 7:32 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
Quote:
No, of course not. She should get away from an abuser. But that doesn't change the fact that she made a promise.


Promises are void if abuse is happening.

In practical terms, yes. In reality, promises mean nothing. That is something I seek to avoid in my life.

I make promises a rarity in my life. I think it's a good practice. Make few promises, keep them all. And if I promised my life to someone, I'd keep that promise no matter what. If I was forced to end a marriage, I'd hold up my end of the bargain anyway.

A lot of people promise loyalty in marriage in sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer. Yet somehow mental illness or lapses in judgment don't seem to count as sickness. Sorry, but I know my wife and she knows me. For one of us to want to harm the other or to leave the marriage would require some kind of mental illness. We'd lock the other person up "for their own good" if it came to that.

The aforementioned justifications that WOULD drive me to a contested divorce would be circumstances that would make marriage unlivable. For me, it would only be a means of protecting myself and my children from a spouse's catastrophically bad choices. I would not see it as a free pass to find a new mate. I can't just throw her away like some piece of trash, even if she acted like trash. I'd love her all the same. I'd seek to reconcile every way possible. But there wouldn't be another woman in my life.



The_Face_of_Boo
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28 Mar 2015, 6:43 am

AngelRho wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Long posts...this thread is now populated by long posts....

zzzZZZZ

My favorite kind. ;)

Here, you can borrow my down pillow.


Which down? :| :pale:



AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 7:23 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Long posts...this thread is now populated by long posts....

zzzZZZZ

My favorite kind. ;)

Here, you can borrow my down pillow.


Which down? :| :pale:

Eider. What else is there?



genesis529
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28 Mar 2015, 10:29 am

Every woman I know loves nice guys. Maybe it's just the way rural Southerners are.



Evam
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28 Mar 2015, 1:54 pm

To AngelRho: What you say about marriage and divorce is not love but a threat.



AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 2:23 pm

Evam wrote:
To AngelRho: What you say about marriage and divorce is not love but a threat.

It's neither. It's an agreement.

Seriously, what ever happened to love being unconditional? Whatever happened to people being together "no matter what"? The problem with marriage for most people, in my opinion, is people say a lot of stuff about romantic love and commitment, but they flake out when the hard stuff hits. If that's all marriage amounts to, why get married?

As to being a threat…again, for us it was an agreement. Let's suppose it IS a threat. If more people viewed it that way, would more or fewer people get married?

For us, there are no such things as "irreconcilable differences," and no divorce should go uncontested. It's a cold reality for us, and part of that is due to our past work experiences. We both used to work for lawyers. Either one of us at any time could type up petitions for divorce. We saw first hand what people did on the legal side of divorce proceedings. We know all the tricks and all the counter-attacks. My wife is well aware of how to get rid of me at any time if she wanted to, as much as I'm aware of how easy it is to file for divorce. We both know all the legal and psychological tactics both parties employ to coerce the other into cooperation with NFD's. The fact that most people fall for these tactics is appalling.

Incidentally--if someone hands you divorce papers, wipe your butt with them if you don't agree but would rather reconcile. Any half-way decent lawyer, any lay person who has the time to spend in law libraries and at the chancery clerk's office can bury a contentious spouse in so much paperwork it'll take a decade to dig out of. If you want to fight a NFD, you start by documenting every attempt throughout the proceedings you've made to reconcile. You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up. There have been divorce cases where one partner could demonstrate that he or she was driven to committing adultery because of the actions of the other spouse, or it can be demonstrated that both spouses were cheating. But if both parties have kept their noses clean, as long as one party continues to do so, the spouse fighting the divorce can stick a private investigator on the other until he or she slips up. It's usually just a matter of time. So you get one lawyer on the phone with the other, inform him you have the evidence, and you see if continuing is really in the best interests of the other. If they persist, you slap a contested divorce for grounds lawsuit on the offending spouse, take the kids, take all of his or her possessions (whatever would have been joint property held in common), and get child and possibly spousal support (depending on the laws in the jurisdiction). You take them to the cleaners. And since you have the evidence, you go ahead and file a civil suit against whoever he or she is cheating with for loss of affection (not available in all jurisdictions).

It's not about threats. It's about protecting your rights under the law. For my wife and I, marriage isn't a game. People should learn to keep promises. Enough said.



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29 Mar 2015, 4:30 pm

"You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up"

Or you could just try to be a good spouse.

What you're describing is abuse by legal means. Why would you want to torture this person that you want to stay married to? This is partly the nightmare scenario that keeps me in an a desperately unhappy marriage. Sometimes I think maybe I'm just engaging in catastrophic thinking, but then I read something like this and I know my husband is partly keeping me so emotionally beaten down so that I can't escape this hell of a marriage.



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29 Mar 2015, 5:18 pm

elkclan wrote:
"You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up"

Or you could just try to be a good spouse.

What you're describing is abuse by legal means. Why would you want to torture this person that you want to stay married to?


I agree with Elkclan. If you really love someone you wouldn't psychologically beat them down to make them do what you want.



AngelRho
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29 Mar 2015, 5:31 pm

elkclan wrote:
"You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up"

Or you could just try to be a good spouse.

If you're being a good spouse…and by that, I mean if BOTH parties are being a good spouse, then there's nothing to worry about, right? The thing is, I don't verbally, mentally, or physically abuse my wife. We have a family night once a month, I cook on Friday nights so we don't have the extra expense of going out for pizza but can still enjoy "junk food" once a week that she doesn't have to cook after she's worked late. If there are relationship problems/concerns, we talk it out as it arises, we have a weekly ritual where we review the past week and get a game plan for the next so that nothing catches us by surprise. She's very good to me. I'm not a perfect husband by any stretch, but I do try to look after my family. These kinds of scenarios aren't, as far as we're concerned, even really relevant to us. But she has told me if I try to leave, she'll have me committed.

Look…the paperwork thing in divorce proceedings is simply a means of fighting something one spouse doesn't agree to. You can call it legal abuse, but filing for divorce is abusive, too. NFD's don't look beyond the person filing the papers. It's selfish. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tacitly allow anyone to screw me over like that. I want to work things out. And if you just want out to be selfish and make horrible choices you know good and well will hurt me and the rest of YOUR family, then I'll do what I have to do. But I'm not going to let a divorce go uncontested. You have a right to protect yourself and seek justice under the law. I can see how you would think it's abusive. But that view doesn't consider that there are TWO sides in divorce proceedings. If my wife is trying to harm me by dissolving the marriage when I feel that any differences we have are perfectly reconcilable, I shouldn't be made to feel that I just have to go along with it. I'm a person, too.

elkclan wrote:
This is partly the nightmare scenario that keeps me in an a desperately unhappy marriage. Sometimes I think maybe I'm just engaging in catastrophic thinking, but then I read something like this and I know my husband is partly keeping me so emotionally beaten down so that I can't escape this hell of a marriage.

Honestly, I'd taken the better part of 30 minutes writing a big response when I thought better about it. If you really are in an abusive situation, take him to the cleaners. Document everything. Hidden cameras. Audio. Whatever it takes. If he's giving you garbage and that's why you want out, you don't have to take it.

The legal aspect of it only works for an uncontested NFD. That's where you can have a regular War of the Roses (movie, highly recommended). If you can demonstrate that your mental/emotional health has suffered, his behavior towards you has affected your ability to work, etc., you can probably sue him on grounds.

If the truth is actually you're just tired of being with the same guy, he's actually very good to you, and there's no actual abuse going on AND he vehemently doesn't want to end the marriage, then you'd have to learn to deal.

But…if I may be honest here…if he's giving you a hard time at home and making you feel stuck, I'd say the chances are pretty good he's got something going on outside the home. I don't know that for a fact, and I know I'm wrong about a lot of things. If you're looking for a way to slap him back through the justice system, you probably don't have that far to look. What happens a lot is someone will be cheating and they project their own faults on their spouse. The spouse will, under advise of a lawyer, ask for a NFD just to get out of the marriage and take her life back. If there's cheating going on and it can be proven, that gives her a little leverage, so he'll most likely comply because that means he gets to stay with the other woman and keep almost all his money. If that were the case, what YOU would want to do is sue on grounds of adultery, take him to cleaners, take the money, take the house, take everything and kick him to the curb. Once the money is gone and he has to pay you and the kids almost an entire paycheck every month, the other woman will fly back from whence she came. Why? Because even though you initiated the proceedings, you have permanently inserted yourself into his life. No woman will ever want him after that. It would be just like having two wives. And while I think that would kinda cool, the reality of it isn't that much fun.

I don't really condone divorce. I hate the very idea of it. But if your marriage is in trouble, you do NOT just have to sit there and take it. You do have options. You need to work your issues with your husband out. You can't let this keep happening. It will eventually break you. Work things out and do the best you can. You got married for a reason, after all. And if he's really causing all the problems here, it's just a matter of time before the scum floats up to the top. NFD's can tie you up for months if not years. With NFD and the paper wars that ensue, eventually SOMEONE is going to screw up. Cut men completely out of your life until the final decree. Don't even LOOK at another man. If he's just throwing paperwork at you hoping you'll blink first, just keep hanging on. Either he'll get tired of it or he'll do something stupid, assuming he's the kind of guy you say he is. When that happens…NAIL HIM.

If he gets tired of it and he DOESN'T screw up, a final decree will eventually go into effect by default. Either way, you're divorced.

Oh, and FYI--if he's really abusive and you are in a situation you feel you can't get away from him, it's common for a spouse, usually the woman, to get a TRO (temporary restraining order). The way most courts work, you type out a motion for TRO and an order for TRO (which is cut/paste the motion with only slightly different language). You'll also need to find someone to be your process server, and you'll need a corresponding certificate of service. You'll need to tell your server to go in, hand over the papers, get out, and don't say a word. If things get so bad you have to put him in jail, you can file a motion to convert the TRO to a permanent injunction. Judges don't like permanent injunctions, usually the TRO is enough to get the job done. You can do all this yourself, of course, but it's always best to work with a lawyer.



AngelRho
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29 Mar 2015, 5:37 pm

hurtloam wrote:
elkclan wrote:
"You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up"

Or you could just try to be a good spouse.

What you're describing is abuse by legal means. Why would you want to torture this person that you want to stay married to?


I agree with Elkclan. If you really love someone you wouldn't psychologically beat them down to make them do what you want.

It's not all about love, though. I mean, love is probably the biggest and strongest component of our marriage. It is by far not the ONLY component.

People who have done no wrong deserve justice, too. I won't get my way here, I know that…but comparatively few people actually take marriage very seriously. That disturbs me.