Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

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This a thousand times. ^^^

Best post in the thread. It's a shame the OP didn't read it.

I agree with Geekonychus....excellent post, Elkclan.

These are the kinds of things miserable people say.

Um... Earth to AngelRho! I'm an aspie, and a beta male to boot. Do you actually expect me to be a happy person?

Anyway, we're all going off on a tangent here. The purpose of the thread is to discuss and debate when in history it stopped being OK to be a nice guy.

Earth to Aspie1: I'm an aspie, too. What's your point? If you want to be a happy person, be a happy person. Do what happy people do. If you want to be miserable, be miserable. Do what miserable people do. That alpha/beta thing is just in your head, anyway. It's a poor reflection of reality. If you want to be an "alpha," whatever that means, then change your behavior.

married men can be the most disrespectful, talking about f*****g their wife at teh shop or going on and on about what she did recently that pissed them off or having to put up with stuff.

only spend 3 -5 hours on here a day, hardly most of my time. and bit of that is used on replying to gun threads and hating on poor people threads.

nope as i've been reminded though not that it matters in my mind/location theres a whole bunch of millions of people in worse situations than me. I'm just attempting to accept reality of I'll never be loved. I don't follow that alpha gamma beta s**t. nor do i think being nice is the sole reason or even the main reason for not being able to be loved. though it probably turns off the thrill seeking adventitious women. I've already gone into the main ones so not bringing them up here. think whether a person is a nice guy/girl is a secondary consideration to relationships.



no though I wish I was. not sure what that has to do with the discussion though.

The first sentence makes no sense at all! As much as I'd like to become alpha by changing my behavior, that's biologically impossible. The alpha/beta/omega status is something men are born with; it's encoded in their genes.

For a geometry example, pretend that alphas are circles, and betas and omegas are squares. A circle can roll easily; a square cannot roll at all. But if you cut 4 corners off a square to make an octagon, it'll roll with enough effort. Cut off more corners, and you'll get a 256-gon; it will roll quite easily. Keep going, and you'll get a 65536-gon that's practically indistinguishable from a circle. But even it will never actually be a circle.

Nowhere in human history, between the Indus Valley Civilization and the 1960's, was the genetic divide for men as blatant as today. We can only hope for the pendulum to swing in nice guy's favor. That, or cut off 65536 proverbial corners.

So you really want to insist that you can make an entirely false hypothesis and then ignore everything that tries to tell you that?

The question can't be answered because it is a false one.

Nice guys are not pariahs. There may be stages and situations where being "nice" serves a guy better than in other stages and situations, but there is always room in this world for people who are actually, truly "nice." In fact, the world is probably more open to nice men now than ever in history, given that I think people used to be horribly brutal to each other, and given that I think men used to take it as a given they could cheat on their wives, with women just accepting all those negatives because that was "the way men are." You think you have it hard now? What about a time when the only way to survive was to be the one killing the most game? Or being the strongest warrior? Human nature has never changed; it bends as it needs to in order to survive.

For the record, my son is an Aspie male, and a beta. And he IS a happy person. Not as much as when he was young and naïve, but he will still tell you he is happy. Happy is a choice. Why not make it?

IDK I know I sure prefer nice people to mean people...or even people who aren't particularly 'nice' but not mean either. Of course that does not include people faking that they are 'nice' but I don't consider that nice I consider that manipulation.

Irrelevant. Anyone can observe human behavior and consciously alter their own. It may come more naturally to some than others, some behaviors may actually be encoded, but I think most behaviors are learned. Some people think I inherited a musical gene that I passed on to my kids. Well, two of them MIGHT have perfect pitch, which I've never been able to teach, but regardless they have a gift I never had. I'm better at music than anything else, but I've also worked my butt off to get good at it. In other words, it's not entirely a natural talent.

That's why I think the alpha/beta thing is imaginary. Some people just care more than others. I'm not one of those big go-getter alpha types until I get behind a musical instrument. I'm not Mr. Charisma or anything, but I do seem compatible with a certain type of woman. My wife is drop-dead gorgeous, and her ex was one of those psychotic über-alpha types who threatened to kill me. I was, like, whatever…bring it. I left because she wanted me to leave. Later on I impregnated her. Being a decent person and hooking up with decent MOOS beats out machismo BS every time. Point is that charismatic, Mr. Personality, über-alpha type means absolutely nothing if you're a world-class jerk. You lose the girl, and some punk like me moves you out of your own territory. Alpha, beta, Ima Tappa Keg, it doesn't matter.

Y'know, here's a thought: If some "alpha" stealing your girl or just getting alpha leftovers is a problem for you, why not just pursue women who don't fall for PUA crap? There are women, and plenty of them, for whom quietly curling up with a good book is the perfect way to spend a Saturday. They're unimpressed with this false alpha/beta dichotomy and see men fighting over them as a turnoff. The perfect date is just hanging out…no strings, no expectations, no pressures, just chilling. What about that type of girl?

I just don't buy this stuff. But if I assumed this is true, it changes very little. The fact is the kinds of girls I'd want to spend a lot of time with aren't going to be impressed with miserable people. You can't win that kind of girl with a horrible attitude. And if those girls are easier to get than the more outgoing, party/dance club types, just think how much more difficult it's going to be trying to pick up that type of alpha male cast-off girl when you bring a horrible attitude!

Side note: If you don't mind alpha leftovers, PUAs have a technique that will work almost every time--negging. Thing is, I don't really care for girls shallow enough to fall for this trick, much less end up with PUAs in the first place. I'm more about LTRs than just getting laid, whereas guys who are jerks that get girls don't care what happens afterwards. Some girls are into the whole NSA thing, and that's not to say I've never been up for it or that I've never done it. It's just less than ideal in my world. What I want is what I eventually got, and I think it's important to be honest with yourself about things like that.

Nice guys boiled in cauldron can cure cancer too.

but thats boring...................>.<

lol

You want a drama-free date or not?

Sometimes girls end up with alpha jerks because they honestly don't know any better. He looked like a nice guy, pointed out all my issues, showed me just how bad my life really was, and made me feel really good about myself. He was so good-looking, funny, smart. I felt so good with him, one thing led to another…and I never saw him again. Lesson learned. I won't go out with THAT guy again.

Other girls get dumped or worse…they get abused. They keep pursuing the same type of guy because they like someone fun and in-charge, someone who brings out all their issues and makes them feel better about themselves. They don't pick up on how these guys are cut from the same cloth. They fall for it every time.

They might be interesting, fun-loving girls, sure. But here are my issues with them. For starters, I'm not in the business of mopping up messes and adopting rescuing stray puppies. That creates dependence. I don't want a girl to NEED me. For second, it's an acceptance of a woman's place within a worldview that objectifies her. The thought of waiting until one man is done with her before I have a go at her just seems…um…unhygienic. No thanks, I'm not eating leftovers. A woman who chronically allows herself to be used that way is not the sort of woman I'd want to be with. Third, I've been with women who were addicted to drama--again, NO. You do NOT depend on me for your happiness, and you will NOT create drama to tempt me to slap you down like your ex(es). NO. And I'm not going to allow myself to just settle down with you and provide you with stability (and actually develop feelings for you) until you get bored and cheat on me or leave me for some jerk who has enough money to provide you with entertainment.

I'll take boring over misery any day.

Who is they? Is what this “they” say the thing that makes “nice guys the social pariah”? Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that men don't have standards? Because I find that really hard to believe when I've been rejected and seen my NT friends get rejected.

Since when does second (or third, ect) marriage mean last choice? What is wrong with accepting that people can have relationships and then move on to new ones? Is this one of the reasons nice guys are considered pariahs? My uncle is on his third wife. That doesn't mean she's the only woman he could find that would accept him. He's not a nice person though, so I suppose he doesn't fit the nice guy pariah thing.

The social scale is genetic? That doesn't make much sense. I've changed in the social scale when I moved schools or states. If it was genetic how would that be possible? So does that mean that some of us are genetically predisposed to niceness, and therefore to become pariahs?

It's funny that I actually had a debate about this alpha male/beta male at a meetup last Friday with one male and one female. We found it interesting that it has really only been in the last 5-10 years that people seem to be buying into this "Alpha/beta" crap. Anyway, we agreed that the alpha male stuff doesn't mean a damn thing, but men and women may have to put up with some BS and develop character in order to find the right one for them.

now of course, what I have observed and even known from my relationships is that it is better to serve without expectations and do so with a smile and be happy and joyful about it. Even Jesus served his own disciples. Secondly, one must remember the golden rule to marriage as well: happy wife, happy life.

and sly- Days in to read or watch a movie are amazing and stress free and not really that boring. If we went out everyday to do something, I am pretty certain we would be broke by now as well. Not really a responsible thing to do now, is it?

meant i don't read books. now if it was cuddling up to a good show/movie or video games. or maybe even board games. that'd be ok.