Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

Post Reply New Topic

meant i don't read books. now if it was cuddling up to a good show/movie or video games. or maybe even board games. that'd be ok.

yeah i should have been more clear. I actually spend way more time inside. currently 95% or more inside my room. I like to go outdoors some times. like woods/shooting/camping/hikes/walks outdoors. not parties or bars or big groups of people. I just can't read books. so a girl who spends all her time reading a book would be boring to me. I'd prefer a gamer/scifi nerd whos into guns/outdoors. I'd say i'm probably 75% indoor 25% outdoors in a perfect world.

currently not getting as much being outside as I require. nor social interaction which can be too much but currently is far far far too little.

for relationships some do, for sex a lot don't besides being disease free and having a vagina. having a different woman every night. clearly not having standards. men seem to have less standards then women when it comes to relationships though.

its just not for me. I want that special connect that they had with their first husband. I guess thats just too much to ask. I should just watch as everyone else gets to experience and enjoy it. but if that's how it to be i'd rather end up alone and enjoy what I can of my hobbies before I die. sure theres a bunch of guys who also already had that who are fine being with a lady like that and having the later part of life relationships. I haven't' had the early part and i want that. by the time people have had 5+ relationships, a marriage(or more), 4 kids and now divorced they are past that into a whole another type of relationship.

not even sure how you'd love someone the same after having your heart broke 3 or more times from divorce. it tends to dishearten people from what I've seen. they see marriage and relationships as only what they give and don't believe in loving a person anymore.

I'm just not wanting or ready for that later style relationship. sure I want kids, and lame relationship later but i want the fun, romantic one first.

The question asked was when did it (whatever it is) start? I see a few people have made this 5-10 year claim, but "alpha males" and "nice guys finish last" weren't new 40 years ago when I first started to care about such things. Like most such things, they're not entirely true but there is a thread of truth. Of course there are so many different men, and so many different women that any general statement will be a little wrong in the best instance and entirely wrong in some cases.
I see a lot of posters defining "nice guy" "alpha/beta" etc. to support their own position. Whatever we call it, there is a real correlation between a certain set of behaviours that could be called 'alpha male' and fitness as a mate a million years ago in Africa. So of course there's going to be some correlation between those behaviours and statistical level of female interest. My answer is it's been around at least that long.

We've developed a really useful frontal lobe since then, and that part of the brain usually thinks it's in chage, but there's mounting evidence that is not true. The frontal lobe answers survey questions, writes novels and music and software (and sadly, suicide notes), designs machines and argues a lot, but the older parts of the brain make nearly all the real decisions. Unfortunately those decisions are more appropriate to small groups living in in the wilderness than to internet-connected city dwellers. I made almost no progress understanding people until I realized that I first needed to understand the reasons homo erectus survived to become us.

Do you know any books or research papers on this? I'm just curious to find out more about this. (I have access to academic databases, if that would be helpful. Thanks!)


Maybe they will be less idealistic and naive? My problem with this is those people would probably want someone similar. Someone who had experience, someone who knows how this whole love thing works and I'm not like that. What do you think? Or maybe people like that know that you need to put work into relationship to make it work? Maybe they would be more willing to teach? Also, some young single mothers may have financial problems and I wouldn't want to be in a relationship just for the money I make. I can't be with someone who doesn't even like me as a person.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/he ... or-reality

^ The Alpha male always existed, it is simply a synonym of the attractive man.

In that article she says that Height, voice and face are three determinants of ...attractiveness aka called today alpha.

I agree.

Often guys only think that they are the very nice guys, but are actually not that nice. As they clearly demonstrate to those women by whom they feel "rejected" and who had been "too nice" to them. At least they think that she has been "too nice" (??? please note that this is an NT woman speaking), and sometimes they also think that you have rejected them as a potential partner, but actually you even havent, or at least not like "I could never even imagine having a relationship with someone like you".

Overly dramatic, that s it. And a lot of resentment. Many of you have a bit of this Elliot Rodgers when turning his retribution video.

I have one case in my biography where I felt quite attracted to someone. He had acne scarves, and a little bit of a twisted face, and also some a bit creepy study interest ("The Abject in Jean Genet") but who cares? (Not me, at least not at that time). He put me off because he rejected me by making me a "you-are-rejecting-me" scene. I think that actually he had, like many men, a problem with falling in love together with me. But still, I think he was a very nice guy.

In other words, you just care about what you want, not what she wants.

I mean…it's ok to have preferences. You can look for any type of woman you want. If you don't like women who keep their noses in books all the time, that's your business.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that there's a difference between out-going party girls who respond to men in certain (unhealthy) ways and girls I'd consider "safe," i.e. girls who'll dump you the first time some other guy says "hello." I'll take safe and boring over fun and unstable any day.

A woman who was interested in me was non-outgoing and very introvert, and she 'dumped' me the first time a friend of mine said 'hello to her; after he rejected her she tried to date me again; and of course, I rejected her since I no longer trust her feelings.

Mind you, there was no established relationship between us, but the ability to switch feelings has nothing to do whether the woman is outgoing or not.

Completely agree. I mean, if we're being honest, this can happen with anyone. It doesn't really matter. You can go out with Ms. Cute Bubbly and she can tell dance club creep to get lost, she's already in a relationship. And Ms. Bookworm might turn out to be fickle and unreliable given the opportunity. It's not a hard and fast rule.

But at the same time, I think some people are generally safer than others. If I'd been in your shoes, I'd probably have given her another chance. People do make mistakes.

There are only two reasons I absolutely WILL NOT give a woman a second chance--PERIOD.

1. She gets married. Sorry, you made your vows to someone else. Don't care if you're divorced, don't even care if you divorced him because he beat you or cheated on you. I'm not taking someone else's woman, and circumstances don't matter to me.

2. She has a baby with someone else. I can't qualify that. You were with me before, he impregnated you, it didn't work out, now you're back? No…I'm not going to be responsible for someone else's child. It's either me or the kid. Cruel? Maybe. But that's how I feel. Sorry things didn't work out between you two or between us, but it's over. Good luck.

Same goes if she was married/divorced or single mom before we met. I could casually date her, but there'd be no LTR. Same basic reasoning--in my mind you belong to the other guy. Divorce is usually a symptom of a larger problem. You didn't deal with your issues in the marriage, so you got divorced. So why would a LTR with me be any different? Does it really solve anything? I don't believe it does. So I could hang out with a divorced women, but I couldn't have a serious relationship with her. And if she's a single mom (never married), it's just my own insecurity and lack of confidence in raising a kid that's not mine. I'm just not comfortable with that, whereas stronger men than me can handle it just fine.

And it's not a wholesale indictment against women, but rather an expression of my own personal preferences.

But all that aside, I'd have given that girl one more chance. I would NOT give her a third chance, though. 2/3 is enough an indicator to me that this relationship isn't worth it, and I wouldn't mind telling her exactly how I felt about it.

Can you tell if somebody is safe or not? If yes, then how.

Man, she went from daily texting/ hang out one-to-one every weekend to zero in overnight just right after her first conversation with this guy.

She suddenly disappeared from my life for a while (only seen her in group outings), and she suddenly went back just right after he blocked her.

So no, no second chance.

Yes. Simple answer--history.

Warning signs:
-Complains about her ex.
-Gossips.
-Makes jokes about your mother.
-Makes jokes about you around her friends.
-Makes jokes about you around YOUR friends (ok, leave NOW).
-Emotionally unstable
-Mentally unstable
-Negative about everything
-Blames everything on everyone else, doesn't own her circumstances

It sounds obvious, but usually things things start out really subtle and get amplified the longer you get to know someone. I think we're all guilty of these things to some degree, but you want to look for patterns of behavior. My wife complained about her ex…but I also saw the insanity first hand and knew she wasn't making this stuff up. Also, we both had little flings when we were away from each other for long periods of time, and we were both aware of what was going on with each other. Sometimes she'd talk about a guy she was with, and it was like I could hear her heart skip a beat over the phone. So when she complained about things, it was really just the loneliness and frustration of being rejected by a guy she either really liked or was deeply attracted to. With other women, sometimes you wonder if they ever have anything nice to say about anybody or anything.

And I'm picking on women, I know…it's because I'm a guy and women are all I know. But if a girl was talking to me about this, I'd say the same thing about men. It doesn't really matter. People are jerks.

Something else I'd worry about: When she's with me in the beginning, is she cheating on someone? Depending on my mood, I'll oblige a girl cheating on her bf. I'm not a nice guy (ha ha). But I'm going to ask myself how I got here in the first place. Is it because she likes me and her other relationship is on the way out anyway? Or is she only with me because she's bored? I was with a girl once who said she'd never cheated on a bf before me. This went on for, I dunno, maybe 3 weeks. We had a serious talk about it and agreed that nothing good was going to come out of it. Her relationship with her bf made a full 180 turn. They eventually DID break up, but it was an unrelated and probably unavoidable problem. She had other issues, too, and you learn to just avoid people like that.

And, sometimes, you just have to learn the hard way. Sometimes they just hide everything, you get no warning signs at all, and BAM--you wake up one day dumped. I got nothing for that. Just try to form as many positive relationships with as many folks as you can and rejection won't be quite so bad.

One gf I was with seemed very sweet, innocent, introverted, and really into me. When you're a college kid, you're usually pretty limited on finances. I was really careful throughout the school year, but I also had to depend on summer jobs, and as I was preparing for graduation, I needed to take some summer courses. No work=no money=no entertainment for gf. And she was the type that needed constant maintenance and entertainment. The money dried up, I got exhausted from trying to keep up with her, and she about drove me insane (push/pull games, talking about other guys, etc.). A smarter guy would have figured her out and dumped her before things got intense. I was not that guy, so she did a pretty big number on my head. It was rough. After it was pretty clear that things were OVER, I decided to have a little fun with her…but after that I had to get serious about my studies and pretty much just stopped talking to her. Once that happened, all of a sudden she wants to be my "friend." That's when I was starting to really look at things objectively and it was obvious to me how self-absorbed she was.

So the lesson you take from that is really just spend time as "just friends," ask lots of questions, keep the other person talking, get to know their interests and long-range goals for relationships, where they're going in life, and that sort of thing. Be honest with yourself, because no matter how much you like her or how cool she is, if you're not able to go in that same direction with her, you're better off just admiring her from afar. There are still certain women in my life I think about every day. Doesn't mean we belong together. I'm content with the fond memories I have, and I wouldn't trade my wife and children for anyone else.

[quote="314pe"]
Do you know any books or research papers on this? I'm just curious to find out more about this. (I have access to academic databases, if that would be helpful. Thanks!)
Guess I should have kept a file on this, but books include: "How the Mind Works" (Steven Pinker), "The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business" (Charles Duhigg) and "Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior" (Leonard Mlodinow). Articles include "The Look of a Winner" in Scientific American and "Predicting Elections: Child's Play!" in Science. I know I've read several more books and at least a dozen other articles discussing this, but since that's not my career field I haven't kept a list of references. I'd go look in my library for more books, but there's a cat curled up in my lap right now telling me to enjoy my day off .

I'd rather have a safe girl. no I do care about what the woman wants probably too much. i just would prefer someone with similar interests, or she'll be upset i don't read and mad i play games. I'll find i have nothing to talk to her or do with her. the women I've seen who are super into reading a lot are book snobs, they look down on anyone who doesn't read a lot too as being stupid and inferior. no thanks

if they into other things and also enjoy reading a book once and a while no problem i can go do something when they read, its the I have a whole room full of books and if you don't read 5 books a week you're stupid type i don't want to be with.

I don't read books. I read on the net, i just can't do books I can't keep concentrated on them.

women don't belong to men, if she got divorced then shes not with him anymore. you'd rather she stay with guy til he killed her?

Nothing wrong with having preferences. It's just that having the right kinds of preferences can make the difference between success and failure. I have preferences, too--she has to be of the same race, at least be in the same ballpark on religion (ideally evangelical conservative, pre-milennial dispensationalist, trinitarian, and not believe only people in her denomination are going to heaven), and she needs to have a strong musical background. Beyond that, there's a lot of room for variety.

I DON'T want someone who is a carbon copy of myself. I mean, that would be cool, but it's not what I expect.

So while preferences do narrow the dating pool, you're ok as long as you don't narrow things so far that you exclude everyone.

That said, though, a certain type of girl is going to be more difficult to find in some situations than others.

I'm not saying bookworms fit a certain mold or ideal…I'm just saying you're more likely to find someone "safe" among those kinds of women. I don't think I've ever met a book snob.


No, of course not. She should get away from an abuser. But that doesn't change the fact that she made a promise.

Suppose I put myself in that situation…my wife is violent, threatens me and beats up on the kids. I wouldn't divorce her. I'd either have her committed or arrested. I'd protect my family at all costs.

I'd only divorce my wife in very, VERY exceptional circumstances. I'd possibly sue for abandonment if that came up. The reason I'd sue her for walking out on us is if I do nothing, she could just claim we've been living apart for so long and she'd get an uncontested divorce by default. Um…NO. You damage this family, you're going to pay for it. I'd sue her for adultery and the man she's with for loss of affection. I MIGHT forgive her for adultery. But if she gets pregnant, the kid's got to go. Women have a hard time giving up kids for adoption, so we most likely wouldn't be getting back together. I mean, for ME to go the divorce route, it would have to be catastrophically BAD. For me to cut you loose, you have to abysmally mess up. Seriously. You'd have to work hard to get beyond my grace.

And you know what? EVEN IF my wife backed me into that corner, EVEN IF I were forced to sue for divorce on grounds…I'd never be with another woman. I'd still be loyal to her. Because I made a promise, and her mistakes don't make those promises go away.

And that's why I'd never do anything long-term with a divorced woman. I especially would never marry one. It's inconsistent with what I believe about marriage, not to mention the problems I already mentioned about divorced women.