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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Apr 2015, 7:00 am

The Roman Empire during the Pax Romana from around 70 A.D. to 192 A.D. and this happens to correlate with the beginning of the Christian movement, at a time when things were kept together by the violent state of Rome in Italy, which pretty much strong armed it's way into surrounding areas, appointing governors under the guise of "peacekeepers" for the Pax Romana which was intended to keep Rome safe and secure but led to it's eventual collapse under the weight of violence addiction and debt.

The parallels between the United States now and Rome then are obvious. We try to create a peace throughout the world, in some of the same places the Romans did, yet it never seems to work (and it didn't work for the Romans, either, at least not for long) and it just ends up costing the average citizen more and more money and is projected to do the same to citizens well into the future, and the amount of money will continually increase as each citizen born already has a debt-tag attached, an IOU of sorts. Meanwhile, the culture inside the US is riddled with violence and strife. People have created an art out of complaining about everything and yet they won't even try to change things through the political system. Many of them won't even bother finding a way to vote on election day. Just give them their breads and circuses.



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13 Apr 2015, 8:04 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Does the US act like Rome before it fell?

No.



kraftiekortie
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13 Apr 2015, 8:07 am

I find that analogy hyperbolic.

Yes, there is much decadence in America--and in the its seats of government--but not to the "physically extreme extent" found in Rome (read: Vomitariums--I believe that's what they called them)



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13 Apr 2015, 8:33 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
...The parallels between the United States now and Rome then are obvious....

Absolutely, but I suspect the United States and Roman Empire are just two of probably several examples of "empire building" which end up costing more than they are expected or worth.

And, I was afraid that this topic was going to be about the "Fall of the Roman Empire" with all the decadence that too many argue was the "real" cause of the collapse when anyone now or then could understand clearly that the economics of empire building have never worked out.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Apr 2015, 11:25 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I find that analogy hyperbolic.

Yes, there is much decadence in America--and in the its seats of government--but not to the "physically extreme extent" found in Rome (read: Vomitariums--I believe that's what they called them)

That's just a large space in the colosseum that allowed a large crowd to exit or enter at once. It was the colosseum itself that was the beginning of Roman fixation with violence.

Although we don't have circuses in America where gladiators fight and kill, it seems like our society acts as the colosseum by hosting the violence. An arena isn't needed.



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13 Apr 2015, 11:41 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
That's just a large space in the colosseum that allowed a large crowd to exit or enter at once. It was the colosseum itself that was the beginning of Roman fixation with violence.

Although we don't have circuses in America where gladiators fight and kill, it seems like our society acts as the colosseum by hosting the violence. An arena isn't needed.

Not to mention the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, NASCAR, political parties, colleges and universities, Spring Break etc. We have several colosseums. The circuses are the fake manufactured dialogue and cliches. The bread is the shiny, sparkly gadgets like iPhones.


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13 Apr 2015, 12:06 pm

No one from the Roman days is still alive, so no one knows. For all we know, "Rome" may not have even existed. For all we know, the powers that be could have had a meeting 300 years ago and decided to make up Rome.



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13 Apr 2015, 7:03 pm

I'd say our parallel is more in line with Greece than Rome. Aside from the civil war period of the Gracchi to Augustus, the political system of Rome was cohesive. The Greeks on the other hand couldn't agree to help each other even under the most dire of circumstances-- aside from the Persian wars. They would rather fight among themselves in petty political gamesmanship than band together and strengthen their society. In that parallel we are much more like Greece than Rome-- our two political parties play gamesmanship while the rest of the world advances and in some cases surpasses us. Moral decadence, sure, we have that, but that isn't what makes nations fall-- poor decision making and lack of unity in the political structure does.



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14 Apr 2015, 6:04 am

Both the Greeks and Romans were better at it.

The decline of America starts right after WWII which produced then unemployed a large Military Industrial Industry, with no one left to fight.

One view is that Patton was whacked before he could lead an army to attack the Russians, and on to the Pacific.

The UN partitioned Korea, MacArthur lead an army across the boundary, and on to the Yalu River and into China. He got fired.

Viet Nam was also partitioned by the UN, with national elections to form a new government, But the election was called off by invading US troops, because democratic elections are wrong. Guns, invasion, occupation, the American Way.

Iran elected a democratic leader, the CIA replaced him with an unelected Shah, and a secret police.

The Post Colonial Era is filled with America picking who will be in power, and who will be killed.

Ike had a 95% top tax rate, paid off WWII, The Marshall Plan, built the American Autobahn, and by the early fifties we were in great shape.

Our old longest war was short, Viet Nam was endless, cost more, dropped more bombs on North Viet Nam than all sides used during all of WWII, it was not a matter of winning, it was war for profit for some, death for others.

After that came a constant series of off the books dirty wars, just about everywhere.

Then it seems people forgot, and Iraq, then Afghanistan have each lasted longer and cost more than Viet Nam.

There were claims war was vital to protect resources. We could not let the people of North Korea control the vast natural wealth of North Korea. Without the rubber of Viet Nam we could not make Golf Balls.

We are now involved in at least five wars, with no end in sight. Half of all government spending goes mostly to Defense Contractors, and the Stock is mostly owned by Congress. They stand knee deep in blood, but they are all rich.

Rome took hundreds of years to reach the point where they bankrupted everyone feeding the war machine, and could not stop the wars, because they could not pay the troops. North of them was too cold, south was hot sand, the Flame of Rome Eternal quickly left nothing but ashes.

Rome did all this without debt.

America has done it in fifty years, and has $18,000,000,000 in debt. That is about ten years total tax income.

Declining tax base, who would start a business now, rising Interest Rates, 5% is traditional, would cost half of tax income. The War Babies are quitting production, and collecting Social Security. Social Security was based on people dying at 55. People now live another thirty years.

Government has its own retirement plan, health care, and the last dollar of income will go to fund it. After that, there will be blood drives at schools, mandatory, so they can sell blood and organs to China.

FEMA Camps are not to round up Citizens, they are to protect Government from Citizens. They are stockpiling supplies, preparing for the future. when the music stops, they will have a chair.

There is no Civil Defense Plan for the Citizens. That in its self is the plan.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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15 Apr 2015, 4:38 pm

Inventor wrote:
Both the Greeks and Romans were better at it.

The decline of America starts right after WWII which produced then unemployed a large Military Industrial Industry, with no one left to fight.

One view is that Patton was whacked before he could lead an army to attack the Russians, and on to the Pacific.

The UN partitioned Korea, MacArthur lead an army across the boundary, and on to the Yalu River and into China. He got fired.

Viet Nam was also partitioned by the UN, with national elections to form a new government, But the election was called off by invading US troops, because democratic elections are wrong. Guns, invasion, occupation, the American Way.

Iran elected a democratic leader, the CIA replaced him with an unelected Shah, and a secret police.

The Post Colonial Era is filled with America picking who will be in power, and who will be killed.

Ike had a 95% top tax rate, paid off WWII, The Marshall Plan, built the American Autobahn, and by the early fifties we were in great shape.

Our old longest war was short, Viet Nam was endless, cost more, dropped more bombs on North Viet Nam than all sides used during all of WWII, it was not a matter of winning, it was war for profit for some, death for others.

After that came a constant series of off the books dirty wars, just about everywhere.

Then it seems people forgot, and Iraq, then Afghanistan have each lasted longer and cost more than Viet Nam.

There were claims war was vital to protect resources. We could not let the people of North Korea control the vast natural wealth of North Korea. Without the rubber of Viet Nam we could not make Golf Balls.

We are now involved in at least five wars, with no end in sight. Half of all government spending goes mostly to Defense Contractors, and the Stock is mostly owned by Congress. They stand knee deep in blood, but they are all rich.

Rome took hundreds of years to reach the point where they bankrupted everyone feeding the war machine, and could not stop the wars, because they could not pay the troops. North of them was too cold, south was hot sand, the Flame of Rome Eternal quickly left nothing but ashes.

Rome did all this without debt.

America has done it in fifty years, and has $18,000,000,000 in debt. That is about ten years total tax income.

Declining tax base, who would start a business now, rising Interest Rates, 5% is traditional, would cost half of tax income. The War Babies are quitting production, and collecting Social Security. Social Security was based on people dying at 55. People now live another thirty years.

Government has its own retirement plan, health care, and the last dollar of income will go to fund it. After that, there will be blood drives at schools, mandatory, so they can sell blood and organs to China.

FEMA Camps are not to round up Citizens, they are to protect Government from Citizens. They are stockpiling supplies, preparing for the future. when the music stops, they will have a chair.

There is no Civil Defense Plan for the Citizens. That in its self is the plan.


Thanks, Inventor. Always nice to read your posts, they have a lot of information in them.

No doubt about it, a large faction in this country wants to spend money on nothing but defense and doesn't seem to concerned about the well being of individuals who will not benefit from violence and fighting wars. Will it be subversive enough to gut the nation? It remains to be seen.



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23 Apr 2015, 9:20 pm

I think we are gutted. Debt is going up a trillion a year, so 2016, $20 Trillion and interest rates of 5%.

The debt balloons, and bubbles are unstable.

China, Russia, India are dumping dollars, and buying gold. Surplus oil is being offered in for anything but dollars.

China bankrupted Rome, selling silk, for gold. Once Rome had a lot of gold coins, they all went down the Silk Road.

Things are horrible in China. Exports are down, only a third of people can find slave labor factory jobs, and China is buying tons of gold. They are also mining gold. Pollution is killer, there are no food stamps, no social security, this will be a short lived generation. At the same time they are educating the next generation, picking the best totters for State Boot Camp Education. The old system, picking the best by testing, helping the poor die young.

China has built new cities where no one lives, connected by high speed rail. They are solar powered and have developed farmland. They have a plan.

As for the CO2 and water problems, China has a tree planting plan, by 2050 they will have a self developing atmosphere.

Both the US and Rome lacked a vision of the future.



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24 Apr 2015, 8:26 am

Inventor wrote:
I think we are gutted. Debt is going up a trillion a year, so 2016, $20 Trillion and interest rates of 5%.

The debt balloons, and bubbles are unstable.

China, Russia, India are dumping dollars, and buying gold. Surplus oil is being offered in for anything but dollars.

China bankrupted Rome, selling silk, for gold. Once Rome had a lot of gold coins, they all went down the Silk Road.

Things are horrible in China. Exports are down, only a third of people can find slave labor factory jobs, and China is buying tons of gold. They are also mining gold. Pollution is killer, there are no food stamps, no social security, this will be a short lived generation. At the same time they are educating the next generation, picking the best totters for State Boot Camp Education. The old system, picking the best by testing, helping the poor die young.

China has built new cities where no one lives, connected by high speed rail. They are solar powered and have developed farmland. They have a plan.

As for the CO2 and water problems, China has a tree planting plan, by 2050 they will have a self developing atmosphere.

Both the US and Rome lacked a vision of the future.

It is true that the United States is cash poor. There is no gold at Fort Knox. For us, a combined settlement of jubilee-styled debt forgiving and restructuring could be resolved in years, not decades. Meanwhile, China and most other nations are doing what we should be doing by buying metals. However, China is touted as the "world's second leading economy" despite the fact that, since the British leased Hong Kong, China has always been the world's second leading economy. It is saddled with world debt as well as its own. Its citizens (in Hong Kong, at least) are making demands on its government. Demands that cost money. It will likely always be the world's second leading economy.

In other words, while China is doing some things that we ought to be doing, it hasn't moved an inch toward leading the world. Despite all the U.S. problems, it is still the leading economy. And, we have ways out of our debt. They don't. Now, if we can just finally lose those remaining Keynesians in our government and admit we have problems.


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24 Apr 2015, 9:37 am

There is much more to being an empire, the Roman empire spread their culture and language far beyond their empire. The same with the British and the Americans, people all around the world are learning English, it is the language of science, just about anything gets translated into English. I don't see many Chinese movies being popular outside of China, and I don't see that changing as anything "controversial" or "offensive" will be censored away so you'll only get very tame movies.



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24 Apr 2015, 2:09 pm

No.

Western Rome fell for a set of major reasons:

1) Extreme corruption, which looted national resources and the treasury
2) Constant political instability, which lead to the regular assassination of emperors and senior senators. they also had civil war frequently as generals fought for control of Rome.
3)The political structure, you had to be worth at least a million in Roman currency to be senator. There was also strict restrictions on who could stand for elections. Also most people couldn't vote either!
4) Constant currency debasing, as they reduced the amount of silver/gold/copper in their coins, which lead to high inflation. They also regularly revalued each coins and issued new coins, which increased the instability of the system.
5) economic stagnation and decline occurred rapidly with was in tandem with
6) diseases, Small Pox entered the Mediterranean via trade with India and plague came from Africa, which decimated the population of the empire!
7) mass migration of new peoples into Europe, especially the German tribes, Frankish tribes, and Huns which were all hell bent on destroying the Western Roman empire
8) Christians were hell bent converting all the religions in the Mediterranean to the Christianity/Catholicism by any means necessary, even if it meant destroying Roman and Greek temples. Christians at the time found these ancient religions to be enemies of God and would regularly do stuff to the temples and try to prevent the religious holidays, as part of their plan to cleanse their known world of these enemies of God!


The U.S. is different:

1) Political stability exists. There are legal actions to via the judicial system as well (Granted the constitution purposely made decision making hard and slow for the federal government)
2) Corruption isn't that bad and is still less than Guilded Age.
3) The political structure is solid and open to anyone. Everyone has the right to vote.
4) No currency debasing going on... the U.S. Dollar is the main international reserve currency at ~67%, with the Euro at ~30%. Everyone wants U.S. Dollars, it is the main currency for economics.

5) The U.S. economy is the biggest, the most diverse, and the most dynamic in the world at ~$17T with an average of 3-4% growth, doubling ever 23 years. The next biggest country in economic size is China... Chinese national government is spending billions if not trillions in propping up their economy. Literally majority of the economic activity is driven by government spending not market activity. Chinese economy is rapidly cooling and most likely will enter into stagnation due to the Chinese government's refusal to embrace full capitalism and to relinquish their controls over the economy and culture. Chinese economy is mostly manufacturing driven and companies are now moving their operations out of China and heading deeper into Asia and Africa because of costs. The other biggest economies in the world are EU and Eurozone which both rival the U.S. in size.

6)No major health concerns to decimate the U.S. population. the population is stable. Immigration is the reason for growth the past few years.
7)No mass migration of new peoples in the world!
8)No new religion to create social upheaval, U.S. society is for the most part stable.
9) The U.S. has the technological, economic, monetary, financial (U.S. controls most of the financial institutions), resources (The U.S. have every natural resource in this country to some degree), manufacturing, and military advantage.
10) nearly every major international organization is based in the U.S., including the World Bank, IMF, UN, and others.
11) The U.S. is the biggest funder of the international organizations, the biggest contributor to international efforts, the biggest donor of international aid, the biggest contributor to military efforts, the biggest taker of refugees, and yet hasn't tried to annex any countries outside of Hawaii and Cuba.
12) The U.S. isn't out to get land grabs and to control countries. The U.S. is only out for economic and military allies.
13) The U.S. is the most trusted world power currently despite the recent issues.

The U.S. isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Russia and China on the other hand...

The British and French both lost their empires for these reasons:

1)They educated the people!
2)They refused to allow local governance, thus legislating for their empires.
3)They were hit with the two biggest wars in history on their home front and empire boundaries and massive economic depression in quick succession.
4) reason 3 bankrupted both, forcing them to take American aid which dictated they had to give up their empires in return for the aid.
5) they were forced to rely on the U.S. to win the both wars and to give into U.S. demands at the treaty negotiations.
6)They were so exhausted in terms of people and resources, they could no longer maintain their empires.

The two world wars and the great depression never happened in quick succession, both the British and French empires would still be here!


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24 Apr 2015, 3:53 pm

xenocity wrote:
The British and French both lost their empires for these reasons:

1)They educated the people!
2)They refused to allow local governance, thus legislating for their empires.
3)They were hit with the two biggest wars in history on their home front and empire boundaries and massive economic depression in quick succession.
4) reason 3 bankrupted both, forcing them to take American aid which dictated they had to give up their empires in return for the aid.
5) they were forced to rely on the U.S. to win the both wars and to give into U.S. demands at the treaty negotiations.
6)They were so exhausted in terms of people and resources, they could no longer maintain their empires.

The two world wars and the great depression never happened in quick succession, both the British and French empires would still be here!


I think decolonisation was pretty much inevitable since the population of colonials was simply so much greater than the population of the European countries controlling them, and the distance too great. And of course these people deserve to be free and not exploited by Europeans.
But I'm not sure the Americans pushing it has made it much better, although ultimately it would be ethical thing to do. Decolonisation in many cases went too fast and ended up turning into dictatorships or failed states. Arab world is full of wars, riots, dictators, fundies and crazies. South Africa is the most unequal society in the world. Some of the Asian states turned commie. Indonesia is getting ever crazier with Islamic fundies. Most of these countries have very little freedom of expression, no money, and no or badly functioning democracies. What they lack is what is called civil society, so that all different groups are represented. Newspapers of different political color, unions for socialists, for Christians and for whoever else (I'm not much a fan of unions myself, but usually countries that don't have them suck), free broadcasting and internets, and an educated population that has access to these news sources and organisations. You can't have a democracy if these things are not present.

A bad example from the Netherlands: they granted Suriname independence, Dutch troops left, a local army officer imprisons opposing politicans and intellectuals and has them shot and takes power.



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24 Apr 2015, 8:14 pm

Colonial or Clients, being directed by a Higher Power, does lead to advances, railroads, cities, clean water, garbage pickup, employment.

The order of Rome did not survive the retreat of Rome. Cities, markets, baths, roads, established for hundreds of years were abandoned, and Latin was no longer spoken.

In India we see keeping spoken English, and the railroads, in Africa, cities became ghost towns, rail ended, and both change back to how they had been.

England was like Rome, both had 90% poverty. Their social dream did not even fit their own population.

In Rome the 90% were slaves, owned with obligations and legal protections, slaves are fed, clothed, and sleep under a roof. England had employees, only part time, and thought the poor should only eat when needed for work. They should also provide their own food, clothing, shelter.

History records the acts of leaders and of nations, but leaves out the vast majority.

Longer term, a top group directs others to take over more, but expansion is always followed by contraction.

Look how quickly the British Empire faded. Once Rome withdrew from Hadrian's Wall, their trade, language, and influence also vanished.

World occupation is an expense that does not quit, and the advantages bring a limited profit to a small group. When the profit is gone, only war industry is left, it was not the Roman Army producing the shields, weapons, helmets, and supplying the food, that was a small politically connected group.

America is great only because of debt. Our National Debt matches our time as The Sole Superpower.

Both Britain and Rome reached a point where the cost of maintaining an Empire overwhelmed the benefits.

America has done the same, but our Empire is Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, where the costs never stop.

Capturing an empire is fairly easy, holding one expensive, and someday, all empires run out of money.

As the lands revert to the colonies, they are both better educated, and have seen the worst side of the imposing power. In lands with classes, India, the upper class will take the place of the British Raj. In Africa, tribal struggles will return. Iraq and Afghanistan have reverted to timeless warfare, tribes and religion.

The wealth of ages has been spent for the glory of flags.