Getting the right attitude
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02 May 2015, 1:03 pm
evilreligion wrote:
The whole thing? Or just the angry aspie bit?
Both, as it sounds like a call for moderation, and a misrepresentation of what's going on.
evilreligion wrote:
I am not calling for any moderation of the message we want to get out BUT I am definitely calling for some moderation in the way that some parts of the autistic community convey that message.
No ["angry Aspies"] IS happening. It absolutely is I have exprienced it first hand on multiple occassions and seen it happen to other parents on dozens of occassions.
No ["angry Aspies"] IS happening. It absolutely is I have exprienced it first hand on multiple occassions and seen it happen to other parents on dozens of occassions.
No, the AS community, is actually quite the opposite to how you're describing them here. AS people are actually quite timid, and don't at all like to even get into a confrontation. Mainly because of the experience that my-my pointed out is quite common. It's incredibly rare to have an AS person, even object to being dehumanised, most will be silent about it.
I've even had situations where, people in my crew have started to explain something, only to stop and go "Oh, and Moro knows the rest."
If you dare to be thought of as anything other than inferior, and even slightly suggest so, people jump straight on that, with a vengeance, and treat you absolutely horribly. That's why many do not speak out about the dehumanization, etc.
Calling for some sort of moderation, is the most ridiculous nonsense I've seen in a while, and I've seen a lot of nonsense. AS people are incredibly moderate, incredibly timid, to the point where we say nothing, and THAT, is the part that's heartbreaking. What we need is the exact opposite of more moderation.
Especially so if the person is being nice to you but saying horrid things, even I have quite a difficult time just talking on the subject to someone that's ignorant but not willfully so, this "angry Aspies" business is simply a complete myth.
Even if AS people fail miserably, and say something stupid like "Oh, you're just a dumb s**t head." That should absolutely be applauded, because that's someone that AT LEAST is making an attempt to counter the spread of the vile stigmas, rather than just sitting on the side lines, as it were. What we don't need, is for that attempt to then be berated as alienating people, it's very counter-productive. That's not going to get people to stand up for themselves and counter the vile stigmas, they're just going to become even further terrified of reprisal and hateful vitriol.
There shouldn't be an expectation of perfect flowery language, with pure Vulcan temperament. It's such a grandiose expectation that's simply not in the realm of realistic, and arguably, not an accurate human representation.
What we need, is to get people used to the idea of saying "f**k you" to people that speak horribly to them. And, also, to get over the idea that saying "f**k you" to them, makes them an awful/hateful person, or something of an "angry Aspie" as you put it. It doesn't, it's quite a normal, and very human reaction to someone that's being incredibly arrogant, willfully ignorant, belligerent and treating you absolute s**t, and there shouldn't be an obligation at that point, to respond to them with such flowery language.
What we don't need, is for AS people to simply say nothing, to just shut up and bow their heads. Tolerance of intolerance, is cowardice. It would be one hell of a breakthrough if all the AS people being silent, were finally able to tell one of these people "f**k you", and that's a good thing.
evilreligion wrote:
if you want to change peoples minds that anger need to be curbed. Or at least channeled correctly.
The reason that I call for this is because the "angry" language is alienating and will simply drive parents away and they will then get their information from autism speaks.
It not only weakens the argument but it makes that person hostile towards the cause and drives them away to find their information else where..
When a person is attacked as a bigot and told they need to "shut the f**k up and listen" as has literally happened to me then 9 times out of 10 that person will react negatively. Fight back and then after a short few rounds of escalating abuse will bugger off to another website to get the information they want.
It is the NT's that need to get this message.
You could flip out back and call them a bigot. But then you have lost that person forever.
Instead I would suggest considering where they are coming from as a person. Try and understand why they think the things they do and then work with that knowledge to challenge those assumptions. This is how you change peoples minds. Shouting never works.
But try and understand why people thnink what they do. It is not becasue they are bad people they are simply misinformed. So the "job" of the autism adocacy movement is really one of education. You the autistic people of the world are the teachers and we the NT's are the pupils. What I am trying to do here is to give some advice on how to be a better teacher. The kind of teacher that berates and ridicules their pupils is, I would suggest, not as effective as the one that works with them and tries to understand why they are having difficulty getting a particular concept. Also bare in mind that this education process is not compulsory and the "pupil" can walk out and leave the class any time they like.
The reason that I call for this is because the "angry" language is alienating and will simply drive parents away and they will then get their information from autism speaks.
It not only weakens the argument but it makes that person hostile towards the cause and drives them away to find their information else where..
When a person is attacked as a bigot and told they need to "shut the f**k up and listen" as has literally happened to me then 9 times out of 10 that person will react negatively. Fight back and then after a short few rounds of escalating abuse will bugger off to another website to get the information they want.
It is the NT's that need to get this message.
You could flip out back and call them a bigot. But then you have lost that person forever.
Instead I would suggest considering where they are coming from as a person. Try and understand why they think the things they do and then work with that knowledge to challenge those assumptions. This is how you change peoples minds. Shouting never works.
But try and understand why people thnink what they do. It is not becasue they are bad people they are simply misinformed. So the "job" of the autism adocacy movement is really one of education. You the autistic people of the world are the teachers and we the NT's are the pupils. What I am trying to do here is to give some advice on how to be a better teacher. The kind of teacher that berates and ridicules their pupils is, I would suggest, not as effective as the one that works with them and tries to understand why they are having difficulty getting a particular concept. Also bare in mind that this education process is not compulsory and the "pupil" can walk out and leave the class any time they like.
You seem to be focused on some sort of outreach for curebies where you try to change their minds, that's never going to happen, and I have to ask why you would want to go in that direction?
If someone changes their mind or "evolves their position" as Obama would put it, sure I've no problem with that. But I simply would not be comfortable being in the same room with one of them, let alone being expected to, or have to gently explain that we're not inferior to them, no way, no how. No, I don't want to hang around them. You can, but I'm not. We don't need some sort of outreach initiative for people that do have those desires, I don't see how that's going to work when they can so easily just ignore it. What we need, first and foremost, is some standard of protection against these people, or at the very least, some form of investigation.
And really, why would we want people like that on our side? It's like you said, assumptions. They have something they don't understand completely, a blank spot in their knowledge database so to speak. They then make an assumption, then because something is wrong with them mentally, they use fallacy to conclude that the assumption is factual, essentially filling in the blanks with rubbish. So in reality, it's not as simple as changing their minds on the one issue, but more a significant problem that they have, that's potentially volatile, even dangerous. So why would we want people like that hanging about the AS community?
This business of reaching out to them, and gently trying to change their minds, it's an incredibly unrealistic expectation, that no other minority group is expected to conform to.
Yes we do need a way to educate people to not be prejudiced and discriminatory towards AS people, particularly in the workplace, but trying to change the minds of the most bigoted and the most hateful, with such pure language and kind persuasions is simply not going to work.
It's not a situation where they come to us, asking for firsthand experience and information, but rather, they think they have all the answers, and want to spread the vile stigmas around. That's why it's so important to speak out against it, to stop the spread of the vile stigmas. Studies have shown, for example, that even if the content of an article is entirely factual, people will end up believing the top commenter that seems the most credible, that has the most likes for instance. That's why it's so important to refute the nonsense, not try and win people over, but to debunk the BS. I don't care about changing their minds and "winning people over", sure it's nice when someone does get it from time to time, but stopping the spread of the vile stigmas is far greater than having people like you. That's why we need more people fighting and battling for acceptance, not less.
evilreligion wrote:
Getting the parents on board with an autism positive message is perhaps the single most important factor in an austic kids life. Without that everything else is harder. So every alienated parent represents an increase in pain and suffering for autistic people.
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this: But, what you're talking about, is extremely naive, and not at all possible. I myself come from an abusive household, as many Aspergian have, obviously, and it's not a case of explaining it properly and politely then all the problems go away. And I feel sorry for people that do stick it out through the abuse, and constantly try to remove the stigma within their own family. And before you say it, no it's not the method, or Aspergians angrily explaining things, that's not the problem here, some people simply don't have the capacity to understand. For some, we just have to wait until they die out. It's unfortunate, but the best option available in order to escape the abusive/toxic environment, is to sever ties, even if they're family.
evilreligion wrote:
One will alienate your audience the other may get the message across and change minds.
They've already alienated themselves from the community, it's not any particular thing that the AS community has done to make them full of hate.
evilreligion wrote:
As a professional marketer I will tell you preciselly why. Autism speaks understands how to communicate with its target audience. It is run by parents for parents and so instinctively gets how to communicate its ideas to other newbie parents. So even with the wrong ideas, the wrong message and piss poor out comes they win the war of ideas. The way the message is presented is just as if not more important than the actual message when it comes to changing peoples minds.
Now I think that the self advocacy movement may have an inbuilt disadvantage. Autistic people, in my experience, tend to be more direct and to the point than NT's. So simply "telling it how its is" should, in the minds of many autistic people, be enough to get the message across. Tell people straight the facts and then if they don't understand they are a bigot or an idiot. Right?
Now I think that the self advocacy movement may have an inbuilt disadvantage. Autistic people, in my experience, tend to be more direct and to the point than NT's. So simply "telling it how its is" should, in the minds of many autistic people, be enough to get the message across. Tell people straight the facts and then if they don't understand they are a bigot or an idiot. Right?
You seem to have the notion that we're heavily dehumanised, because a few bad AS apples are messing it all up, and if we just stop shouting and being angry everything will be fine. That's not the case. The blame is entirely on groups like Speaks.
It has nothing to do with poor communication, but everything to do with numbers and credibility. The reasons everyone compares me to cancer and AIDS, isn't because some Aspergian yelled them away and they got the wrong information, but because of the spread and prevalence of the vile stigmas. Lets say the for arguments sake, that every single AS person, has immaculate communication skills, what changes? Nothing, that's what changes. Speaks and friends will still be there to happily dehumanise.
It's not a case where they come for the information and get put off by "angry Aspergians". You explain something to them, very politely and they tell you they already understand, and that the AS community is just terribly misinformed. So before the conversation has even started, the problem is not with the AS person, but the spread of the vile stigmas. And 10 times out of 10, they tell you have no idea what you're talking about, do a google search and link whatever bias confirmation they can find, and confidently tell you that the reason you don't understand is because of your Asperger's, or because your intellectually disabled, or because you "have" a disorder, or because you've lost your marbles. Nothing to do with being angry, but a credibility issue, where they see us as inferior, and thus lacking credibility to hold any kind of understanding on the subject.
Yes there are people that "get it wrong", but aren't doing it in a malicious way, or it's unintentional. There aren't people that berate and harangue them with all sorts of vitriol, it's just not happening. As I've mentioned AS people don't want to get into arguments. Well, except for me, perhaps.
No, you never say "this person is a bigot" that's ad hom autofail. But making note that what they just said is indeed bigoted and hateful speech, is a valid way to refute the vile stigmas. If someone is being as belligerent and arrogant as possible, that works in my favor, I can point to that to refute their attack. These people, they're not interested in knowledge, or hearing what others have to say, they want to be "right" and continue to spread of the vile stigmas. I really don't care to have these people on board and happily knocking about the AS community, I care about stopping the vile stigmas and gaining true equality and peerage. There's nothing wrong with pointing out the horrid bigotry, in order to refute and stem the progress of the vile stigmas.
evilreligion wrote:
To be cristal clear on this. I have found, in general, the AS community to be welcoming and very willing to educate. BUT a small minority are very destructive to the cause. This is not unique to autism rights by any means. The most prominent example today is feminism. A small minority of angry people have managed to alienate most men and many women from the movement. It is a movement that still has much work to do but this work has been hindered by a small group of biter and angry radical feminists within it.
This isn't really an accurate comparison. Within feminism, you have people going around accusing every man and his dog of rape, people protesting for extra judicial justice, and spreading the idea that we live in a "rape culture". Then there's the accusations of misogyny over things like what sort of t-shirts you wear, and also constantly trying to vet and veto entertainment like video games, because it will, apparently, turn people into misogynists (no citation yet). Point being, that in the western world, feminism already won, and people generally treat women fairly, so feminism isn't needed anymore. So that's why current renditions look absolutely appalling. We on the other hand, aren't going around and accusing people of rape, or other crimes. We don't want to ban things like GTA, or control what clothes people wear. We just want parity and peerage, and to be considered valued human beings, not some genetic mistake that needs to be eliminated, I don't think that's a big ask.
