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Kraichgauer
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03 May 2015, 11:41 pm

appletheclown wrote:
To bad communism does suck and all this is a delusion.

You all want us to earn our keep, or share our keep with everyone whether they deserve it or not?

There is no such thing as 'earn' in a perfect communism, that is why it is morally wrong and does not reward good work and ingenuity.

The cruel, hard world we live in is terrible not just to be terrible, but is meant for those who want to survive to learn how to do it.


Or, we as a society can make things better for everyone, and in particular, for the poor and disabled. Providing a safety net hardly equates communism. In fact, the great religions of the world advocate such a thing.


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05 May 2015, 9:03 am

No Gus Hall fans?



appletheclown
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05 May 2015, 10:06 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
To bad communism does suck and all this is a delusion.

You all want us to earn our keep, or share our keep with everyone whether they deserve it or not?

There is no such thing as 'earn' in a perfect communism, that is why it is morally wrong and does not reward good work and ingenuity.

The cruel, hard world we live in is terrible not just to be terrible, but is meant for those who want to survive to learn how to do it.


Or, we as a society can make things better for everyone, and in particular, for the poor and disabled. Providing a safety net hardly equates communism. In fact, the great religions of the world advocate such a thing.

The poor need food, shelter and water, not my money.


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Kraichgauer
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05 May 2015, 10:51 am

appletheclown wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
To bad communism does suck and all this is a delusion.

You all want us to earn our keep, or share our keep with everyone whether they deserve it or not?

There is no such thing as 'earn' in a perfect communism, that is why it is morally wrong and does not reward good work and ingenuity.

The cruel, hard world we live in is terrible not just to be terrible, but is meant for those who want to survive to learn how to do it.


Or, we as a society can make things better for everyone, and in particular, for the poor and disabled. Providing a safety net hardly equates communism. In fact, the great religions of the world advocate such a thing.

The poor need food, shelter and water, not my money.


Money is where food and shelter come from.


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Sweetleaf
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05 May 2015, 11:06 am

CreamOfConnor wrote:
"To be sure, though, outside of the Sandanistas and some other Latin American communists, most communist regimes had cracked down on religion in the most brutal fashion, whether said religion had aided the establishment against the people or not."

Yes, that is true. States like the U.S.S.R were very anti-religious (extremely so). But what I was saying was that it's not necessary to be anti-religion to be a Communist. I don't think that Marxist-Leninist "Communist" regimes should be the basis of how we perceive Communism, as the U.S.S.R and similar states were hardly Communist at all (Communism would be stateless and moneyless, two things the U.S.S.R wasn't). One ruling class was simply replaced with another, and I feel that's always been the flaw with the Leninist method to achieve Communism.

(Sorry about my inability to quote properly)


Hmm that is essentially what I think about it....I don't meet a lot of people who recognize the U.S.S.R and other communist 'regimes' as pseudo-communism or false communism. But yeah the soviet union and other places like it could hardly be classified as stateless or classless that is for sure.


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Sweetleaf
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05 May 2015, 11:16 am

appletheclown wrote:
To bad communism does suck and all this is a delusion.

You all want us to earn our keep, or share our keep with everyone whether they deserve it or not?

There is no such thing as 'earn' in a perfect communism, that is why it is morally wrong and does not reward good work and ingenuity.

The cruel, hard world we live in is terrible not just to be terrible, but is meant for those who want to survive to learn how to do it.


Pseudo-communism sucks, in theory actual communism wouldn't suck....and would eliminate poverty. Also you would earn plenty in communism, just not monetary earnings there is nothing morally wrong about having a society that eliminates the need for such an archaic system of hierarchy....it might never occur, it might never work but its 'immoral' because people wouldn't earn money? They'd earn knowledge, skills, friends, leisure time, feelings of accomplishment and no one would be going hungry....and you say the idea of such a society is 'immoral'.

And hate to break it to you but there is nothing moral about the pseudo-survival of the fittest philosophy you agree with if you want to talk about morality. Society is a human construct, therefore if it is cruel and hard...its because people made it that way not because that is the most moral way, its the way that allows the fewest people to have the most power and wealth while much of the world lives in poverty.

Throw a rich yuppie in the wilderness with just a tent and see what happens....yeah their money won't save them, survival of the fittest my a**. Survival of the fittest refers to in nature the animals and plants adapt to the environment, not who has the most money/resources in society to shove in the faces of the less fortunate...all the while trying to create systems which make it more and more difficult for those struggling to even survive.


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Sweetleaf
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05 May 2015, 11:34 am

appletheclown wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
To bad communism does suck and all this is a delusion.

You all want us to earn our keep, or share our keep with everyone whether they deserve it or not?

There is no such thing as 'earn' in a perfect communism, that is why it is morally wrong and does not reward good work and ingenuity.

The cruel, hard world we live in is terrible not just to be terrible, but is meant for those who want to survive to learn how to do it.


Or, we as a society can make things better for everyone, and in particular, for the poor and disabled. Providing a safety net hardly equates communism. In fact, the great religions of the world advocate such a thing.

The poor need food, shelter and water, not my money.


Actually the poor need more than food, shelter and water and not that all of them even have those things. But there is medical care as well since a large majority of people in poverty have disabilities, chronic illnesses or severe mental illness. Also in order to have any chance of decent mental health humans need leisure time. Then of course things like toiletries(deodorant, soap, toothbrush, toothpaste, tampons for females, hair-brush ect.). So yes the chronically poor, much of the time do need money. I mean for one the food and shelter costs money most of the time, public drinking fountains still exist so that helps with water but of course its possible to be in an area without them. You cannot expect the impoverished to just trudge along with nothing but just enough food and water to survive for the rest of their lives simply because they are unable to pull themselves out of the rut they've fallen into without some form of push back. What do you figure people do when they feel they've got nothing to lose? Then there is the issue of those who have a disability that prevents them from working, these people also need money to live.

Lol even not allowing the poor any money, and just shelter, food and water would also still cost money since the funding for this would have to come from somewhere.


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05 May 2015, 12:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
...there is medical care as well since a large majority of people in poverty have disabilities, chronic illnesses or severe mental illness....

It used to be that medical doctors determined that the Hippocratic oath's requirement of "first do no harm" includes a reasonable interpretation that turning away patients because they couldn't afford the care was violative of the oath.

Oaths for Physicians – Necessary Protection or Elaborate Hoax? wrote:
...Shrugging our shoulders when our patients cannot afford to pursue what we and our colleagues feel are necessary tests, procedures, or medications because we are confronted with a system error, or resorting to habitual lying in dealing with a recalcitrant system, is treason to our patients, to our art and not least to ourselves.

Medscape General Medicine. "Oaths for Physicians -- Necessary Protection or Elaborate Hoax?" (2007)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1925028

But, that was then and this is now when Big Medicine forbids its physicians from providing charity care outside its official foundations and pro bono billing managers. Many medical students aren't even taught that this free-care provision ever existed. Too many medical students don't even take the oath. And, that says a lot.


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RushKing
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05 May 2015, 6:48 pm

I think I remember reading somewhere that Aaron Copland was a member of cpusa.



Kurgan
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10 May 2015, 2:48 pm

starfox wrote:
Btw the Soviet union was never true communism. Stalin became a dictator and has warped the meaning of communism in a lot of people's minds and now people think it's atomatically a bad thing. He became power hungry but continued to use the guise of 'communism'.


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Basso53
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12 May 2015, 2:26 pm

Jacoby wrote:
No Gus Hall fans?


Quite possibly the only person who ran for president more times than Harold Stassen. :lol:

I admired his persistence, if nothing else. 8)


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Sigbold
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24 May 2015, 8:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
That, and the fact that they had opposed Hitler at a time when no one else seemed to care


Until the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

starfox wrote:
Btw the Soviet union was never true communism. Stalin became a dictator and has warped the meaning of communism in a lot of people's minds and now people think it's atomatically a bad thing. He became power hungry but continued to use the guise of 'communism'.


First of all this sounds a lot like when libertarians state there was never a true capitalist society. Also does this only go up for the USSR, or all states that proclaimed to be Marxist?

And second, are you suggesting things where all fine until Stalin managed to seize power?

AspieUtah wrote:
British and American economist, historian and writer Antony C. Sutton, D.Sc., ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton ) had some interesting things to write about the Soviet Union and its friends within the U.S. government.


Not to mention the 1995 declassified : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project



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25 May 2015, 9:17 am

Both sides knew that the Molotov-von Ribbentrop non-aggression pact was just temporary, and would be broken in the very near future. Stalin was buying time, as well as taking an opportunity to gain a slice of Poland and re-gain some territory that was ceded to Finland when it became independent in 1917. Hitler was delaying a two-front war for as long as possible.


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Kraichgauer
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25 May 2015, 9:57 am

Basso53 wrote:
Both sides knew that the Molotov-von Ribbentrop non-aggression pact was just temporary, and would be broken in the very near future. Stalin was buying time, as well as taking an opportunity to gain a slice of Poland and re-gain some territory that was ceded to Finland when it became independent in 1917. Hitler was delaying a two-front war for as long as possible.


That had been Stalin's official story after the fact. The truth was, Stalin saw the enemy on the left, and so believed he could work with Hitler. That was why he left his guard down to his western border, and purged his military, as he thought he was safe with his new Nazi partners, with whom he'd share Europe with. Stalin was completely flabbergasted when Hitler suddenly invaded the Soviet Union. This was information we were taught in Russian history, back in my college days, when it had been newly released under Glasnost.


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Touretter
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27 May 2015, 7:47 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
starfox wrote:
Btw the Soviet union was never true communism. Stalin became a dictator and has warped the meaning of communism in a lot of people's minds and now people think it's atomatically a bad thing. He became power hungry but continued to use the guise of 'communism'.


Another reason why communism had gotten such a bad rap was because of it's official rejection of religion, which didn't sit well with many Americans who considered themselves to be a religious people. But Communists in El Salvador had actually incorporated Christianity into their philosophy, particularly with the call of both Christ and Marx to embrace the poor. Then there was the simple fact that capitalists realized that communism threatened their place in the sun, and so used their positions in society to make Communism look as evil as possible.

Actually in their faq, they state that they are not against religion http://www.cpusa.org/faq/



Kraichgauer
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27 May 2015, 8:46 pm

Touretter wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
starfox wrote:
Btw the Soviet union was never true communism. Stalin became a dictator and has warped the meaning of communism in a lot of people's minds and now people think it's atomatically a bad thing. He became power hungry but continued to use the guise of 'communism'.


Another reason why communism had gotten such a bad rap was because of it's official rejection of religion, which didn't sit well with many Americans who considered themselves to be a religious people. But Communists in El Salvador had actually incorporated Christianity into their philosophy, particularly with the call of both Christ and Marx to embrace the poor. Then there was the simple fact that capitalists realized that communism threatened their place in the sun, and so used their positions in society to make Communism look as evil as possible.

Actually in their faq, they state that they are not against religion http://www.cpusa.org/faq/


Well, good for them!! ! (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I am being quite sincere.) :D


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