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jrjones9933
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16 May 2015, 8:43 am

I think that prejudice against Islam exceeds the prejudice against other religions. There are alcohol-drinking, pre-marital-sex-having, pork eating Muslims. I'm sure there are lots of cool straight-edge Muslims as well.


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mikecartwright
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18 May 2015, 5:45 am

Zuhdi Jasser is a Moderate Secular Muslim I admire and respect him there are others we should support. There are Moderate Muslims and a Moderate Islam. Religion is up for human interpretation. Islam is a Abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity they all believe in the God of Abraham Abrahamic Religions. I think Muslim Women should have right to cover themselves hijabs veils face veil is debated but I think the issue is that Muslim Nations based on their interpretation or interpretations of Sharia force Women all Women Muslim and Non Muslim to dress a certain way and Stoning for people's sex life is an issue and punishing homosexuality.

Zuhdi Jasser and Robert Spencer debate Islamic reform

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihios1W7h0E

In the Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in the Saudi Kingdom Paperback – September 1, 2008
by Qanta Ahmed (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/In-Land-Invisible ... 1402210876


Wednesday, April 27, 1994

Jews and Arabs Talk at Brotherhood Synagogue
LOOKING AHEAD by Wally Dobelis

The Friday April 23rd Sabbath service was an incredibly emotional event for the congregation. This was the first time that the sermon was given by a Muslim.

In line with the principles of peace and brotherhood between nations as well as between individuals espoused by Rabbi Block and his successor, Rabbi Alder, they along with Rabbi Brooks and David Landis, a past President of the congregation, had attended a Muslim service and met Seif Ashmawy, the publisher of The Voice of Peace, an Arab/English/Spanish language monthly newspaper. Seif was invited to address the congregation.

One must understand where Seif comes from. He is a man with a mission, a mission of peace. A naturalized American and a business executive, he and his Italian-born wife Maria, who is a self-employed pharmacist, started the newspaper with their personal funds right after the Gulf War, and were suspected by both Jewish and Arab extremists as being In the pay of Saudis, or the CIA. But they have persisted. Seif today is heard as the voice of moderate Sunni Moslems (90% of the world's 900 Million Moslems) on WABC, once a month.

Seif's message is that of unity, of the common origin and beliefs shared by Moslems, Jews and Christians. He does not speak of the differences. Rather, he brings forth the common principles: that the true Muslim believes in all the Prophets and Messengers , including Noah, Abraham (Ibrahim), Moses, David and Jesus; that he must believe in the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as well as the Koran: that above all, he must believe in the Oneness of God. At which point he recites the Shmah, the basic statement of Oneness of God in Hebrew.

He is concerned that the troublemakers among Muslims, as among Jews, are misinterpreting the teachings of the scriptures, of love, mercy and justice. According to Seif, the Muslim Jihad, the holy war, was not to overpower the world, because Islam does not believe in conversion. It was to defend Islam. The concept originated with the Prophet Mohammed's flight to Medina, from the disbelievers in Mecca, and his successive defenses against the Meccan agressors. The extremists in Islam who advocate fighting against non-Muslims, are doing it to dominate the society. This does not reflect the teachings of Islam, says Seif.

Further, the Sunnis do not recognize a religious hierarchy, or clergy. The relationship between the person and God is direct. An Immam is a leader, yet a layman. Among the Sunnis there are no ayatollahs.

This message, delivered without script but with frequent browsings in a sheaf of biblical and Koran quotes, initiated an hour of discussions during the social Oneg Shabbat after services, during which Seif was surrounded by questioning congregants. Seif came to Brotherhood accompanied by the Consul-General of Egypt, Hon. Sameh Darar, who too believes in the message of peace, but must travel with bodyguards, for fear of political attempts. There were also three Ashmawy supporters from the Egyptian- American community, as well as his wife and his college-bound son Omar, both active editors in the Voice of Peace.

Judging from his followers, it is easy to believe when Seif Ashmawy states that the majority of Muslims are for peace. He holds no brief for the regimes that provide for the average Muslim no means of expressing his opinion, and abhors the
terrorists that respond to moderates with violence. The peace effort must go on.

The Brotherhood congregation opened it its heart to this hopeful message. The traditional embraces between the Arab visitors and members went on and on. I saw an ordinarily sceptical woman survivor of the Holocaust death camps shower kisses on Seif. There were members of the congregation persuasively expressing trust in Seif Ashmawy's person and message, deep in discussions with their more doubtful brethren.

It is understandable that the magnetism of Ashmawy's personality and the optimism of his message is appealing to middle-class Americans, both Arab and Jewish. It is doubtful that the same appeal can be made to the ragged Arab masses, in desperately hopeless conditions and incited by fanatics promising salvation and a a better life. Economic conditions as much as politics and religion drive the social unrest that threatens not only the peace effort in Israel but also the governments of Egypt, Algeria and particularly the rich oil states. But unless we support the peace effort, no matter how doubtful the outcome, we are certain to have wars.

Ashmawy is a panelist on the once-a-month ecumenical session of a popular call-in program, Religion on the Line, on WABC Radio every Sunday, 6AM to 9AM. The other three sessions are individually hosted by Father Paul Keenan, Rev Dr Byron Schaeffer and Rabbi Joseph Potasnick.

http://wallydobelisold.blogspot.com/199 ... rhood.html



Wolfram87
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21 May 2015, 1:28 pm

Now, please note that what I dislike is islam, not individual muslims. I know the distinction seems meaningless, but it's not. I also dislike disingenousness, contradictons and death-worship. While all abrahamic religions are melting-pots of genocide, insanity and death, islam is the youngest of the bunch, and has had the shortest time to cool off. It's also, almost by design, more resistant to change, and haven't really had the tempering influence of reforms the way Christianity and Judaism have. That being the case, I do feel justified in retaining a certain reservation for this particular ideology, and I would thank you not to brandish the stick of "islamophobia" in some misguided attempt to equate criticism of a rather deranged religion to, say, racism.


jrjones9933 wrote:
I think that prejudice against Islam exceeds the prejudice against other religions. There are alcohol-drinking, pre-marital-sex-having, pork eating Muslims. I'm sure there are lots of cool straight-edge Muslims as well.
To be perfectly blunt, in what sense are the people you speak of muslim? Can you say you are a thing, and then do things demonstrating that you are not that thing and still expect your claim to be that thing to be valid?



Quote:
Seif today is heard as the voice of moderate Sunni Moslems (90% of the world's 900 Million Moslems) on WABC, once a month.

This is a quite misleading sentence: 90% of the worlds muslims may be Sunni but moderate Sunnis do not make up 90% of muslims.


Quote:
Rather, he brings forth the common principles: that the true Muslim believes in all the Prophets and Messengers , including Noah, Abraham (Ibrahim), Moses, David and Jesus; that he must believe in the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as well as the Koran


It is no secret that Islam is a mishmash of earlier beliefs from the same geographic region, but with its own self-proclaimed veto as the "final unalterable revalation" tacked on. And while the Koran builds on earlier texts, it also freely changes them, and often for the worse. For instance, muslim apologists like to cite Koran 5:32 as "he who kills a man kills all humanity", and hold it up as an example of a peaceful koranic verse. However, this verse is actually "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. " Do feel free to note that "spreading mischief" is defined by Qatada (one of Muhammads companions) as "whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth.", which is used as justification for responding to criticism of islam with murder in places where Islam holds power. Also feel free to note that the verse is actully talking about the Jews (the Children of Israel), and the subsequent verses go on to tell us why this is actually incorrect, and you should slay unbelievers wherever you encounter them.

Quote:
He is concerned that the troublemakers among Muslims, as among Jews, are misinterpreting the teachings of the scriptures, of love, mercy and justice.


A curious position to take, seeing as he later says:

Quote:
Further, the Sunnis do not recognize a religious hierarchy, or clergy. The relationship between the person and God is direct. An Immam is a leader, yet a layman. Among the Sunnis there are no ayatollahs.


Is he trying to says that there are no Sunni extremists? Or is he saying that both Shia and Sunni extremists are misinterpreting the Koran? If so, by what authority can he say that, if the relationship between person and God is "direct"? And furthermore, this entirely invalidates the usual claim that extremist leaders such as bin Ladin have no authority because they aren't trained as muslim scholars (in Osama's case, he was an engineer) but rather "laymen" unfit to interpret the Koran.


Quote:
the Muslim Jihad, the holy war, was not to overpower the world, because Islam does not believe in conversion. It was to defend Islam.

Curious how a "defensive" war managed to "defend" itself all the way from Arabia to Spain and across the Mediterranean to North Africa and east all the way to China.
Snide remarks aside, there is a concept of a "lesser jihad" and a "greater jihad", where the greater jihad is the personal struggle of individual muslims with their lives and beliefs. This is a later idea traced back to writings some 400 years after Mohammeds death, and during his life, the meaning of jihad was a military war, "lesser jihad".
The idea if the greater jihad is non-orthodox, and considered heretical by a majority of muslims. Three guesses as to what the punishment for heresy is?

Also, Koran 4:95: "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward"

To say nothing about the "House of War" and "House of Islam". In short, the House of Islam is the muslim world, and the House of War is everywhere else, and is, in short, fair game. The Koran allows for the making of truces with the House of War, but urges tghe faithful to break said truce the moment they have the upper hand and conquest can be had.

As for Islam not believing in conversion, sure, But the choices you were given when conquered by muslims were conversion (by "choice"), living as a "dhimmi" (a reviled caste of second class citizens heavily taxed and pretty much without rights) or death. Can you say "coercion"?


Quote:
Judging from his followers, it is easy to believe when Seif Ashmawy states that the majority of Muslims are for peace. He holds no brief for the regimes that provide for the average Muslim no means of expressing his opinion, and abhors the terrorists that respond to moderates with violence. The peace effort must go on.

The Brotherhood congregation opened it its heart to this hopeful message. The traditional embraces between the Arab visitors and members went on and on. I saw an ordinarily sceptical woman survivor of the Holocaust death camps shower kisses on Seif. There were members of the congregation persuasively expressing trust in Seif Ashmawy's person and message, deep in discussions with their more doubtful brethren.

It is understandable that the magnetism of Ashmawy's personality and the optimism of his message is appealing to middle-class Americans, both Arab and Jewish. It is doubtful that the same appeal can be made to the ragged Arab masses, in desperately hopeless conditions and incited by fanatics promising salvation and a a better life. Economic conditions as much as politics and religion drive the social unrest that threatens not only the peace effort in Israel but also the governments of Egypt, Algeria and particularly the rich oil states. But unless we support the peace effort, no matter how doubtful the outcome, we are certain to have wars.


While I can absolutely respect the striving for peace, and I have no problem believing that most muslims want peace, the usual figure for extremists is that they make up 1% of muslims. This sounds like a small, insignificant fraction, but the actual figure makes it an excess of 10 million people. 10 million people espousing iron age cultism as the only proper way to live, and backing that up with the threat and use of deadly force.

This kind of apologism irks me. it seems like identifying as muslim and defining that as a good thing is more important than actually examining the text that comes with that territory, glossing over or "interpreting" all the conquest-oriented bits away, and then holding up the rather thin pamphlet that remains as being the final revelation of the creator of the universe: a tired rehash that "God still hates pigs!"


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jrjones9933
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21 May 2015, 3:07 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
I think that prejudice against Islam exceeds the prejudice against other religions. There are alcohol-drinking, pre-marital-sex-having, pork eating Muslims. I'm sure there are lots of cool straight-edge Muslims as well.
To be perfectly blunt, in what sense are the people you speak of muslim? Can you say you are a thing, and then do things demonstrating that you are not that thing and still expect your claim to be that thing to be valid?

Pretty much the same way that there are bacon-cheeseburger eating Buddhists, Jews and Hindus, and birth-control using Catholics. There are also atheists who hold various superstitions. Religions are full of contradictions, as you well know, as are most people's ideas about most things.


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Wolfram87
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21 May 2015, 4:20 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Pretty much the same way that there are bacon-cheeseburger eating Buddhists, Jews and Hindus, and birth-control using Catholics. There are also atheists who hold various superstitions. Religions are full of contradictions, as you well know, as are most people's ideas about most things.


Vegetarianism isn't a universal tenet of Buddhism, just common.

Jews have a long tradition of "line-drawing", a somewhat "pick-and-choose"-y way for deciding how religious you are. Even so, a bacon-eating jew would probably identify as a jew by birth (as in race) rather than by their practicing the faith.

Some hindu-dominated cities in india recently-ish instituted vegetarianism-by-law, as in, meat is unlawful to consume in these cities. Across all of india, McDonalds serve chicken burgers rather than any bovine meat. So, if by faith or by pure logistics, I think you'll have a hard time making the case for the cow-consuming hindu.Even so, would you kill and eat cows if you honestly thought that they were the reborn sages of old?

And atheism does not preclude you from belief in supernatural woo-woo, just belief in deities. So that's a false equivalency.

And as for the BC-using Catholics, while I naturally approve of this, it just furthers my belief that many believers don't believe what they say they believe. If you identify as Catholic, and part of Catholic dogma is the doctrine that the pope is infallible, and I ask you "do you agree with the popes decree that using condoms is a sin?", what am I to make of it if you reply "no"? How can I take your allegedly sincere belief that this man has unique virtues and responsibilities vested in him from the creator of the universe, if you will disagree with him on the moral implications of a latex sheathe?


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