Possible link to rising sex drive in women?

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Griff
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01 May 2007, 10:54 am

Mind you, my thinking on this might be due to a severe misunderstanding regarding the chemistry of a pregnant woman's uterus and the factors affecting it. I admit here at the outset that I'm relating something of an epiphany. If correct, it could have extensive sociological implications.

Less than half a century ago, the free love movement began in the West. Where culture once dictated strict codes of chastity, particularly for women, it became acceptable, even popular, for one to have sexual intercourse outside of wedlock. In these modern times, such behavior is so widespread that nobody so much as raises an eyebrow over it. According to what I am about to suggest, this has had both positive and negative consequences for society.

Now, in a society in which "free love" is held to be acceptable, let's ponder natural selection. If men are not responding negatively to women who take the sexual initiative, we're looking at a very interesting change in the development of the human race. While women actually do take the sexual initiative in the first place by sending passive signals to the man, women who have higher testosterone levels might have a sexual drive comparable to that of a man. If men don't see sexually assertive women as threatening in modern society, we are going to have a higher rate of reproductive success for women who have higher testosterone levels in areas related to sexual energy. If we accept the theory that testosterone levels in the womb are in part responsible for autism and assume that testosterone levels in women related to sexual energy (check this, please. I may have dearly misconceived this) can affect this, what we're looking at is an increasing rate of autism as women gain ever further acceptance for exercising sexual, social, and financial independence.

However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There is only so far this social trend will go before it reaches a state of equilibrium, so it is feasible that the rising rates of autism could peak at about the same time. What is interesting is that this could give us some insight into why societies that were repressive of women were more successful under primitive conditions than those which practiced a more modern ethic in regard to the status of women. With the technology, career path diversity, and treatment options of modern times, it is feasible for us to tolerate a certain rate of autism in exchange for sexual freedom. If this theory holds, actually, we can be more forgiving toward our heavily patriarchial ancestors.

The negative consequences of autism should be relatively obvious, so I won't address them. There is actually a positive side, however, to putting ourselves at risk of an elevated rate of autism. It is apparently the case that there is a correlation between a high degree of certain types of intelligence and the factors of development that are present in autism, even if we accept that the type of intelligence demonstrated by the autist isn't the whole of human intellect. In spite of the negative consequences of autism, I think that having the MIT boys around is quite enough to offset this cost. This also has implications for the arts and for our economy as a whole, and I'm sure you can think of a number of other ways that the positives can offset the negatives.

I'm sure that other social factors may play a role in this, and I am not confident that I understand the science behind this as properly as I would have in order for this to bear any weight with a professional. However, I think that getting this concept out for the appraisal of people more knowledgable than myself may ultimately be beneficial. Furthermore, I think that it is important for us to examine the links between sociology and genetic epidemiology. If my ideas have any merit, perhaps it is arguable that the empowerment of women may be the key to making it possible for the third world to finally start making steps toward first world status and survival in a high tech world economy.

Thanks for hearing my thoughts.



Griff
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01 May 2007, 11:40 am

I just want to add and stress that I'm not trying to argue against the sexual empowerment of women. What I'm saying here is that this has both positive and negative consequences, assuming my conjecture has any reasonable scientific support, with autism being one of the costs. I consider this perfectly and wholly acceptable. In fact, I would consider accepting this cost essential to economic prosperity in a high tech world.



Ferris
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01 May 2007, 12:05 pm

I think that your assertion that the trend will reach an equilibrium is a fault in your argument. Of course it's possible, but there are at least two other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head. One would be that natural selection will actually favor this trend and over a long period will take over. Or secondly, some factor (it could be anything) could turn it around and select against it, wiping it out.

When thinking of future social trends, all you have to do is look at history to know that you can't expect the status quo to remain for very long. This is one of the reasons that I don't have faith that humanity will remain for very long on the cosmic scale unless some serious changes are implemented somehow.



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01 May 2007, 12:22 pm

This is interesting! Thanks for sharing it. The whole testosterone connection theory is fascinating.



Griff
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01 May 2007, 12:28 pm

Ferris wrote:
I think that your assertion that the trend will reach an equilibrium is a fault in your argument. Of course it's possible, but there are at least two other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head. One would be that natural selection will actually favor this trend and over a long period will take over. Or secondly, some factor (it could be anything) could turn it around and select against it, wiping it out.

When thinking of future social trends, all you have to do is look at history to know that you can't expect the status quo to remain for very long. This is one of the reasons that I don't have faith that humanity will remain for very long on the cosmic scale unless some serious changes are implemented somehow.
Well, I tend to be one of those who think that societies have a propensity for reaching a state of equilibrium if its framework remains constant. I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, since this is off the topic, but...well, that's just a bias that resulted in that assumption, hehehe.



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01 May 2007, 12:33 pm

Estrogen is known to increase women's sex drive. I've never heard the same associated with testosterone. The women I've known with excess testosterone had more muscle mass and were more aggressive socially (and not in an appealing way to men). It was more like taking over meetings, conversations and the lot. They had basically the same sex drive as the average woman.

Estrogen on the other hand is actually given to women when their sex drive decreases as a way to treat it. Loss of Estrogen often results in a decline in sex drive and is one of the reasons for HRT. That seems to be true for both oral and cream Estrogen, although oral Estrogen is more effective and works longer.


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SteveK
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01 May 2007, 12:56 pm

ZanneMarie wrote:
Estrogen is known to increase women's sex drive. I've never heard the same associated with testosterone. The women I've known with excess testosterone had more muscle mass and were more aggressive socially (and not in an appealing way to men). It was more like taking over meetings, conversations and the lot. They had basically the same sex drive as the average woman.

Estrogen on the other hand is actually given to women when their sex drive decreases as a way to treat it. Loss of Estrogen often results in a decline in sex drive and is one of the reasons for HRT. That seems to be true for both oral and cream Estrogen, although oral Estrogen is more effective and works longer.


Testosterone increases sexual sensitivity and libido in BOTH sexes. Women typically have testosterone, but only like 1/15 as much as men. BOTH sexes can only have so much testosterone though. If a woman gets too much, she could get male sex characteristics, and her whole system will be thrown off kilter. If a man gets too much, the testes could shut down or atrophy and, ironically, there can be feminizing effects because testosterone breaks down into estrogen! THAT is why body builders cycle, and use things to fight aromatization.

BTW even EXERCISING and losing weight can increase a womans testosterone, though THAT will generally be within SAFE levels.

Steve



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01 May 2007, 1:10 pm

Good theory. Glad you threw it out here. I want to think about it more but need more info. How much has autism increased and since when? Or is there another thread here about that?



ZanneMarie
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01 May 2007, 1:25 pm

Here's an article on a study about article It says if it's too high it can cause even more problems and they only treat when it's too low.


Then there's this. "This does little to deter drug companies looking to turn a profit, however, and a recent study funded by Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals is testament to this. The study was centered on the idea that although some women see improvements in sexual functioning with estrogen therapy alone, some researchers suggest that the combination of estrogen and testosterone is more effective in preserving libido. The study was met with skepticism from other health professionals, who claimed that the study relied heavily on very modest results reflected in questionnaire responses provided by the subjects involved, as well as a methodology that misrepresented the study’s final statistics." from this article.


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01 May 2007, 1:33 pm

ZanneMarie wrote:
Estrogen is known to increase women's sex drive. I've never heard the same associated with testosterone. The women I've known with excess testosterone had more muscle mass and were more aggressive socially (and not in an appealing way to men). It was more like taking over meetings, conversations and the lot. They had basically the same sex drive as the average woman.

Estrogen on the other hand is actually given to women when their sex drive decreases as a way to treat it. Loss of Estrogen often results in a decline in sex drive and is one of the reasons for HRT. That seems to be true for both oral and cream Estrogen, although oral Estrogen is more effective and works longer.

I believe women get given testosterone to increase their sex drive. Not sure about Estrogen.

I think is it more complicated than testoreone=men, estrogen=women. Men and women have some of both.



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01 May 2007, 1:38 pm

can't you argue that although women are having more sexual partners in western society, they are actually having fewer children. unless you are arguing that women with higher testosterone levels are more likely to be risk takers, and therefore more likely to have unprotected sex.

I think you'd need to find evidence that women with high levels of testosterone statistically have more children than women with normal levels of testosterone.



Last edited by Schadenfreude on 01 May 2007, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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01 May 2007, 1:42 pm

The downside to that theory is women who have high testosterone levels tend to make defective babies. Either the babies will be miscarried due to the mother's hormone levels not making the uterus hospitible or the child will be born autistic, hermaphrodite or if a girl grow up to have PCOS and diabetes. High inuterio testosterone has been known to cause all of those conditions. Not exactly what we need more of in this world as all those people have expensive medical problems and are mistreated in society.



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01 May 2007, 1:44 pm

You need to define what you mean by free love movement in the West.
Having sex has always been popular.
It was Queen Victoria that made it puritanical. I think that was before 1960.



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01 May 2007, 1:48 pm

You'll also find a large amount of high testosterone women are lesbian and that will not be helping the guys any. If you don't believe me notice how many lesbians have excessive body hair and even male facial features. If you ask them a lot of them will also have PCOS.

High testosterone women are not the answer to a guy's problem of not getting enough sex. Honestly the only solution to that problem guys is making lots of money and having a muscle clad bod if you want more women.



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01 May 2007, 1:50 pm

While the testosterone link might be true. You really need evidence of a general increase of testosterone in women.

I don’t actually think that women are having more sex that before overall. Victoanism created that myth of that perfect moral society but it merely hid what was already there and remained thought. The sexual revolution was about changing attitudes toward sexuality. But sex was there in one form or another.



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01 May 2007, 1:52 pm

Ticker wrote:
You'll also find a large amount of high testosterone women are lesbian and that will not be helping the guys any. If you don't believe me notice how many lesbians have excessive body hair and even male facial features. If you ask them a lot of them will also have PCOS.

High testosterone women are not the answer to a guy's problem of not getting enough sex. Honestly the only solution to that problem guys is making lots of money and having a muscle clad bod if you want more women.


Poly-cystic ovaries?