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What Are Your Thoughts On All The Lying?
Meh. I guess it's all good if it makes people feel better about themselves. 9%  9%  [ 12 ]
I don't like it, but most people do, so I do it even though it conflicts with my instincts. 15%  15%  [ 19 ]
I try to do the white lie thing, but I just suck at it. 22%  22%  [ 29 ]
I'm so bad at lying that the mere thought of trying it makes me anxious. I prefer honesty. 26%  26%  [ 34 ]
NO WHITE LIES! Give me the truth even if it hurts, and I'll do the same for you. 28%  28%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 131

Icarus_Falling
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11 Dec 2007, 5:14 pm

I try to observe as many meaningless politnesses and social niceties as I am able, for these are but oil to help smooth the running of social interactions.

But much beyond that, I am blunt and honest to a fault. This gets me in trouble sometimes, but there are those who appreciate me for my honesty, so it can be an attribute. On the flipside, I appreciate it when people are honest with me, even when I might not like what I hear.

One trap I refuse to blunder into anymore is the "Do I look fat in this?" trap; my standard response to this question is to yell at the person who asked it for putting me in an invariably no-win situation.

Good fortune,

- Icarus comprehends the reasoning, but still finds the process distasteful...


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11 Dec 2007, 5:22 pm

Greentea wrote:
How NTs can call this a WHITE lie is beyond me: a group of people were all agreeing the other day when one of them related how she'd told her neighbour some 5 times that she was too busy that day to come for dinner with them. She didn't see the cruelty in misleading someone like this for months, on the contrary - they all called it a white lie.

To me, it's a cowardly form of public relations of the mediocre.


I'd be more pissed off if someone said they thought I was a loser and didn't want anything to do with me than if they said they were too busy a bunch of times. Ignorance is bliss. 8)


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opal
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11 Dec 2007, 5:28 pm

Icarus_Falling wrote:
One trap I refuse to blunder into anymore is the "Do I look fat in this?" trap; my standard response to this question is to yell at the person who asked it for putting me in an invariably no-win situation.

l...


Exactly! I mean are they masochists? If they're asking there is probably the distinct possibility it's true .

The one I never got as a child was when people gave you a gift then asked if you liked/were interested in the gift!
Only a gushing answer in the affirmative was acceptable, but it had to look genuine!


ARRRGH



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11 Dec 2007, 5:30 pm

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:
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Squares are squares...


Which is precisely why I've stopped doing it!


Sorry, I'm having a problem believing that.

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What is the difference between a 'white lie' and a regular lie anyway? Not good at detecting lies unless I have direct facts to the contrary. Otherwise I never suspect other people of deception. My friend would always point out others' BSing to me and nearly every time I never caught on that they were BSing me. I'm sure many here on WP have that problem.


I'm not so good at detecting lies because I usually believe that some people aren't as screwed up as they really are, when what they really are is in fact, psychos who have mastered the art of covering up. But, doesn't mean I continue to take all the BS they try to feed me.

Quote:
When people ask me if they look fat in something, I do answer honestly, often not realizing they wanted something else. So how does one detect whether someone wants to tell them a dishonest answer or not? This way, I can simply state "No comment" when someone is wanting false flattery.


How do you know you're not confusing the other wanting "false flattery" with something else? In this case, it really doesn't matter much whether it's a lie or the truth.


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11 Dec 2007, 6:22 pm

Full-on lying is definitely not something encouraged in the NT world, however white lies are seen as beneficial for one reason and one reason alone...not that they're always used for this reason!

So if you want to eat lunch with someone and they don't want to, which would you prefer to hear?
1) Sorry mate I'm just finishing up...maybe tomorrow?
2) Hell no I ain’t eating lunch with you, I reckon you’re a bloody freak! Get away!

Or if you’re having difficulty with your wardrobe and you ask a friend what she thinks you look like in a certain pair of pants that are perhaps a bit small, which answer would fit better...
1) Geez you look shocking in those, they make all your flab hang out everywhere!
2) Why not try the other pair? They flatter your figure more

White lies are what NTs use to ‘pull the punch’ so to speak.

As for the OP’s reference to Britney lapping up the sarcastic comments – please don’t confuse this with either lies or white lies. This is malicious sarcasm, something very different.

Lies are used to cover your back – eg: denying you were the one that accidentally spilled coffee on the keyboard at work. Almost always come back and bite you in the arse at some point. Best avoided...both NTs and ASers know this.

White lies soften the brunt of the truth, or avoid hurting someone for the time being so they don’t need to worry about something. Can lead to some backfires further down the track, as can be expected.

Sarcasm – don’t confuse this with lies. Sarcasm is overtly malicious most of the time, and actively seeks to make a fool out of the person it’s directed at.



So why do we NTs tell white lies instead of the truth?

Let’s face it. If people spoke their minds all the time, we’d come to blows 24/7. If someone thinks you’re bloody weird because of the way you act socially, chances are you don’t want them to march up to you and say they think you’re ret*d. They might say you’re ‘different’ or ‘unique’ – if they’re decent people they won’t call you names, even if they think you’re such-and-such. Essentially it’s a way of giving themselves some padding, some space in time, to let them judge you more accurately without burning the bridge from the word go.

PS: The ‘Do I look fat in this?’ trap.

This is NOT A GRNUINE QUESTION, lads.

I repeat.

SHE DOES NOT MEAN WHAT SHE IS ASKING.

SHE IS NOT ASKING IF SHE IS FAT.

What she REALLY means:

1) ‘I’m really insecure about my body.’
2) ‘I respect your opinion.’ Alternatively ‘I think you’re awesome and value your view/’
3) ‘I need you to make me feel better and give me confidence, tell me I’m not as terrible as I think I am, because of 2) up there.’

She is, hence, NOT asking whether her rolls are hanging out.

The answer is NOT ‘Yeah, butt’s a bit big’, ‘Well you are a bit heavy’, or ‘No comment’. She isn’t asking if she looks fat. She’s asking for your approval.

FYI, NT guys hate this question as much as AS guys, and get it ‘wrong’ just as often. It’s a cruel position to put a guy in. It really is. I certainly wouldn’t do it...it’s just not nice!

Best thing to do here...’You look fine.’ Give it a casual, friendly laugh if you wish. If she insists (as some dopey b*tches seem to do), give her the ‘Don’t worry about what other people think, if you like it then wear it and strut your stuff, mmmkay?’ lecture. She’s insecure and wants your approval. Even if her rolls are hanging out...let her know she looks fine :) (Classic white lie here)

Oh and a PPS on that thought...guys, if she keeps on playing that trick over and over, you are allowed to get really sick of it really fast and set her straight :) Sit her down and tell her she’s just being insecure and shouldn’t worry about what other people think so much, beauty comes from within – it’s something I see a lot on the forums...not letting other people’s judgements dictate your life. NTs can learn from this :)



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11 Dec 2007, 6:26 pm

One of the worst things in NT-land is being alone, so a LOT of effort goes into building and keeping relationships with others. Most of this involves receiving, interpreting and returning transactional data to form and maintain emotional bonds. Emotionally, it's a cold world and people need to feel loved and wanted or they begin to die inside. Mostly, people look for support and acceptance from the protective group. "White" lies are a form of support. The giver knows the recipient knows better, but is offering comfort: Ya look like crap, but it doesn't matter because I accept you. The recipient needed that to not feel so alone. How many of us are pitied for being alone, even though alone is sometimes like nectar?

The AS brain doesn't process inputs through emotions as much as the NT brain - Simon Baron-Cohen's systemizing. Where an emotional evaluation would give an approximate and servicable action, our brains go logical and look for an exact answer. Sometimes the logic is needed. But when the other person needs the emotional answer, the logical one is insufficient and can feel cruel. Square peg, round hole. It's how we show love and caring and wonder why the recipient doesn't get it. It's how we're offered acceptance and caring and don't get it.

I think most of the AS-NT problems can be traced to not understanding when someone is looking for simple support instead of analysis, and to not understanding when someone is trying to be emotionally supportive. I've tried lying and I'm awful at it. Now I just tell people in advance to not ask for my opinion unless they want what I really think. I put it down to being socially clumsy, which I am. If they persist, I take an "analyze the isotope" attitude and keep all statments factual and neutral. Then if I tell someone they look nice, it means more to them. If someone offers me a "white" lie compliment, I thank them because I know it was nice of them.


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11 Dec 2007, 6:47 pm

Well, at least now I know not to pick up the OASIS book. That's at best a terrible oversimplification, and at worst completely misleading. The important question to ask is why someone is asking you a question. Look at the wider context, try to analyse the question within that, and also for many things understand that the questions are relative. As aspergians, we're pretty awful at thinking of the wider context - we take questions as literal, and don't think past the exact question we're asked, but context is often everything. As an example, let's take "does my butt look big in this?"

Normal aspergian response would be to give an honest assessment, the question is taken out of context. I'm going to add in a couple of contexts to try and illustrate this:

You're out shopping with a friend or partner, they're trying on an item of clothing, and they ask "does my butt look big in this?" It does.
If you were going to answer "Yes, yes your butt looks big in that! Good grief woman! Lay off the pies, you're one fat lady!" then that was the wrong answer. It's hurtful - but the truth is still important in this context, because you don't want her to buy an item that makes her look bad. Say something like "I think the fit isn't good for you, perhaps you should try another," or "I don't think that's a good look for you." Your point is gotten across, but you don't criticise their person at the same time.

Or, you're at home, and going to go out in a few hours, your partner's trying something on she's not worn for a long time, and asks "does my butt look big in this?"
If it does, "I don't think that's a good choice for tonight," is a great answer, ideally along with a recommendation of something else to try if you know her wardrobe well.

But, if you're at home, and you're leaving in ten minutes, she's no time to change, then the context changes completely. "Does my butt look big in this," is instead a request for support and confidence. That doesn't mean you have to lie, but try to be nice. "I think you look good tonight," (and if you don't, why's she your partner?) is a good answer.

Context, context, context. That's what you need to think about with a lot of this stuff. What's the purpose of the question, then put your answer in terms of what you think they want from you. Insults are never good, either.


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11 Dec 2007, 7:45 pm

+agree @ two posts above

You've both got it, nail on the head...especially the 'square peg round hole' analogy. :D Fully agree with ya both.

It’s a necessity to tell white lies at least occasionally if you want to maintain relationships of any kind. Think of it as...softening the truth more than anything.

Off on a tangent - many of you will notice that some NTs really like Aspergian honesty. We actually find it...refreshing. We are aware of the while lies (read: BS) that general society revels in, and when someone comes along and spits the truth, we don’t have to dig through miles of bull just to get the truth – because it’s right there.

It does take some getting used to though. Give us time, let us get to know you. My AS partner (I’m NT, as if it weren’t obvious by now, lol) has a habit of saying what he thinks, saying the truth. Often comes across as callous and insulting, but I know it’s all blunt observation. Even if I’m pretty damn hurt by it (eg: he said that I was getting really good at the ‘appearing dumb but being intelligent’ thing – NT interpretation = you look like an idiot) I usually give him a ‘wtf, are you serious?’ glare until he elaborates. Lol. Never bite his head off or knee-jerk...just wait for the rest of the story.



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11 Dec 2007, 8:03 pm

I see honesty as a form of respect. To be honest is to be considerate--you're saving the person some time and energy because they will probably either discover the truth eventually or suffer the consequences. So-called White Lies are no exception as far as I'm concerned. I'm hurt more by being lied to than by being told the painful truth.

I can rarely lie convincingly. I try to tell white lies at work because I know that otherwise, I could lose my job (for example, if I said, "Ew! Babies are gross!" instead of "What a beautiful baby! You must be proud!"). Situations like that give me anxiety.



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11 Dec 2007, 8:06 pm

Honesty is respect yes, but the white lie example you gave - exactly its purpose, and it extends into the wider world outside the office too.

You would probably find yourself suicidally depressed if people did not use them - many harsh things would come out that you didn't want to hear, and unfortunately, they would probably have an element of truth.



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12 Dec 2007, 1:19 am

Nobody likes to lie. We all lie because most people want to be lied to, and we'd find ourselves in difficult situations if we didn't lie. This kind of "I lie to them because they want me to" is called "white lies". I'd rather not be lied to, so when someone assumes I prefer to be lied to and does the white lie thing on me, they're doing me a disservice. I don't have time or energy to invite you 5 times only to realize on the 6th that you've been lying to me about being busy all along.

People lie, then get angry at you for not getting the hint that it was a lie and that there's not a chance in hell they'll ever accept dinner. So if you give and take lies, you'd better be quite good at picking hidden meaning, or you'll piss people off big time.


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12 Dec 2007, 1:52 am

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Sorry, I'm having a problem believing that.


Why?

Quote:
I'm not so good at detecting lies because I usually believe that some people aren't as screwed up as they really are, when what they really are is in fact, psychos who have mastered the art of covering up. But, doesn't mean I continue to take all the BS they try to feed me.


I wish I could tell which is which. I'd know who to avoid then.

Quote:
How do you know you're not confusing the other wanting "false flattery" with something else? In this case, it really doesn't matter much whether it's a lie or the truth.


I don't understand this question.



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12 Dec 2007, 3:16 am

I think lying has something to do with tact. Being able to lie convincingly is something I am not really sure that I am any good at, due to my amazing inability to tell how people are saying things. I talk with a sarcastic tone nearly all of the time, and have a reputation for not being serious about anything because of it. Unfortunatley, due to the prolonged use of sarcasm, I do not feel that tact is one of my strong points.

example of tact:
"How do I look?"

"You look amazing"

I cannot reply without sounding like I am scripted by a robot who thinks it has a grasp of human behaviour.

If someone asks me a question, and I can sense a sarcastic or even caustic comment on its way, I have a tendency to mumble or apologise for my inability to answer the question in an approriate manner, ie honest. Or, and this is one of my favourites, I tend to shrug and make that noise where you push air through your closed mouth.

It is a strange feeling, because it is like I know how to answer correctly, but my brain is either elsewhere or going "I'm not going to help you, figure it out for yourself!", then when I get into trouble for it afterwards, I feel like arguing with my brain for it's complete lack of co-operation.


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12 Dec 2007, 4:07 am

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who hates this stupid lying culture we live in.

When I ask someone's opinion, I want their honest opinion. I'm not looking for an ego booster (if I want one of those, I go to Radio Shack where I seem to get hit on every time I go in).

You rock Siuan! (and that's not a white lie!)



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12 Dec 2007, 9:59 am

siuan wrote:
I guess the difference between me and the general population is that I don't ask a question that I don't want an honest answer to. I consider questions to be a means to learn more about my world. If you're lying to me, I'm gathering false information...and OMG I hate false information.


I think that is an admirable trait. Just as there are lots of things NT are good at, there are also lots of ways that we totally suck. Lack of respect for the truth is one NT trait that I seriously wish someone would find a way to cure. Many (most?) wars are at least partly attributable to the fact that we often are more interested in believing what we want to believe than trying to determine what is actually true. No aspie has ever massacred 6 million people because of a fictional belief that his race was better than some other race.



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12 Dec 2007, 10:06 am

RudolfsDad wrote:
Lack of respect for the truth is one NT trait that I seriously wish someone would find a way to cure. Many (most?) wars are at least partly attributable to the fact that we often are more interested in believing what we want to believe than trying to determine what is actually true.


Sometimes the truth is too scary to face, that's why some people resort to looking for alternatives and cling to them for dear life. Many things I've said in the past aren't true, and I know they aren't, but they're much easier to accept.


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