an extremely sarcastic post of half WP users

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twoshots
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18 Jan 2008, 8:14 pm

snake321 wrote:
Twoshots, your missing one important thing here, so I'll repeat what I posted:

Your missing the point, if I am a butterfly in a dream, then in that dream I will live as a butterfly, **because IN THAT DREAM the reality is that I am a butterfly**. In our human realm, the reality is that I am a human. This relativity sh** it ret*d.

Even if our reality is a dream, we live in this dream, so to us it is not a dream, it's real. Repeat: Even if our reality is a dream, we live in this dream, so to us it is not a dream, it's real


No I did not miss what you said. Your points are not complicated and not new. My point about Descartes and p-zombies was entirely relevant. Especially the point about p-zombies because it points to a relevant disconnect between even very basic empirical observations and everyday beliefs with respect to the world. Much of what you assume is obvious about the world was invented by someone at some point, and therefore disdain for these lines of inquiry is rude and small minded. Just because you had accepted the reality of the butterfly dream, you would not be sure what that implied, or even what that meant.

What I have argued is not relativity, and generally speaking isn't even properly solipsistic. Actually, I do not believe I have done much other than attack the certainty with which you present your ideas.

Anyway, your constant belligerence is beginning to wear on me and I think I shall stop debating with you unless you learn to speak decently. And a basic grasp of formal and informal logic would help. :roll:


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snake321
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18 Jan 2008, 8:37 pm

Well it's dumb to base our decisions upon our plane of existence upon a "what if" plane of existence, that even if it did exist, is not within our plane of existence.
Should our president make direct decisions reguarding the well being of America, based upon the situation in France? Should McD's discontinue selling the big macs because and if it wouldn't be in the best interests of Burger King to sell them?



Awesomelyglorious
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18 Jan 2008, 10:43 pm

monty wrote:
Says you. But law does define right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. It can do so from a religious or secular approach.
No, law defines what will be punished and what will not be punished, which is usually based upon an ethical system but it isn't the system itself. The issue is that I claim that no ethics can be purely of this world, there is a logical problem with their derivation, and thus a secular approach isn't purely secular and the best non-secular approach really is just the iteration that power acts as power wants.
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You keep referring to your arguments of 'oughtness' but I don't think you have persuaded anyone here.

No, I am not sure I have either, but I don't think anyone has destroyed my argument, and the true value of an argument does not refer to who is persuaded, as people are not logical and any truth on the world will escape them entirely if they don't want it, but rather the logical strength of the argument.



Who_Am_I
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18 Jan 2008, 11:41 pm

snake321 wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
Well? How do you know?


I shouldn't even dignify this with a response, technically on some god-like scale nothing is definate, but that's just taking sh** way too far. If your 5 senses tell you the computer is there, then for us, the computer is there.


You trust your senses? You take it as given that your perception of reality is correct? You are absolutely certain that this all just isn't a dream or a hallucination?

Why?


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snake321
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19 Jan 2008, 1:21 am

Did I say I was 100 % certain? No I didn't, but what I did say was this is our reality, real or not, it's real on our plain, in a dream the dream might be reality to the furthest extent of my perception. If someone is teaching you to make soup, do you ask them how to make french fries? To you apply the recipe for french fries to making soup? Are you grasping my analogy at all here?

Reality to us might be an illusion for all we know in some higher god-like realm, but we're not in that realm, we're here, if I'm cut, I feel pain, I bleed, therefore I can conclude that FOR ME this is reality, I am actually here. What I observe in for me, reality. Anything on some overly philosophical god-like "what if" scale does not concern me. What concerns me is what can be observed by my 5 senses.



Last edited by snake321 on 19 Jan 2008, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Who_Am_I
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19 Jan 2008, 1:22 am

snake321 wrote:
Did I say I was 100 % certain? No I didn't, but what I did say was this is our reality, real or not, it's real on our plain, in a dream the dream might be reality to the furthest extent of my perception. If someone is teaching you to make soup, do you ask them how to make french fries? To you apply the recipe for french fries to making soup? Are you grasping my analogy at all here?


Please don't patronise me.
I questioned the reasoning behind your assumptions, and instead of just saying straight out "I don't know, but it doesn't make a difference to my life", you got pissy at me.


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Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I ! !! !
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I


TheMandalore
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20 Jan 2008, 4:01 am

Actually, Who_Am_I, I think he's saying that while he doesn't know, it doesn't really matter. If the only senses you have say the computer exists, then for you, it does. For (hypotheticly) someone who can see past the "illusion", it might not be there, yes. But for you, it is, and thats what should matter.


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Who_Am_I
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20 Jan 2008, 8:28 am

Yeah, for all practical purposes, that's all that matters, but that doesn't necessarily mean that thinking about the "true nature of things" or however you want to put it, is meaningless.


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Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I ! !! !
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I


Averick
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23 Jan 2008, 7:57 pm

I agree. I mean, isn't that the most elusive, burning question?

Why?



snake321
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24 Jan 2008, 1:29 am

The underlying issue here is that if people stand a chance at surviving through these changes in all honesty all this internal division and cliques will not help a damn bit..... Ignorance is valued and intelligence and individuality (and common since) are scorned.... And people do not see this as a problem?....... Every "group" of people has contributed to this mess. And yet people categorize themselves and from there they refuse to take any responsibility for their actions, they refuse any constructive criticism, I mean people vote for special priveledges, everyone wants to believe theyr entitled to teacher's pet priveledges because of their religion or their gender or their race or their political label, it's a bunch of balogna. Peoples' egos are so thick that they can't look at themselves critically, they can't admit to f*****g up.
this postmodernist/moral relativist crap is just another game philosophy where the game is dodging the empirically obvious and providing a cover and mask for ignorance.......