Why do I have a hard time expressing my thoughts coherently?

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shomnec
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21 Jul 2009, 2:21 pm

I suspect that both the very high standards and the feeling of incoherentness stem alike from AS. Perhaps the former has its origin in the latter - that when you grow up feeling frustrated about your ability to express things well, you become hyper-conscious of your performance and begin to critique every little thing. The AS proness to details and patterns probably doesn't help much, lol! :-) At least in my case.



Twest
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22 Jul 2009, 12:27 am

While it is true that aspies hold themselves up to a higher standard than nt's. Most of us find it hard to organize are thoughs.
I for one have never been able to write more than a few pages even for term papers. Most of the NT's I know even the dumbies can coherentally tell a story or what not with out any trouble. Where as I have to start at an event or idea and start talking or writing and just follow where ever it takes my thinking like I'm just driving the bus instead of drawing the map.
I thing that inpart it is due to the fact that I don't know how to entertain more than one thought at a time in my mind not that I can't multitask I do that quite well. I bombed out of physics in a hale of fire because I was unable to consider the pantheon of conflicting consepts. In my term paper for Physics II I disproved every theory my professor had introduced in the course. I did get an A+ but that was the end of the road for me in studying physics as from that point on I could only see science as a backward religion.
Of course it probably is, it certainly meets the criteria of a religion.



NicksQuestions
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22 Jul 2009, 4:00 am

Mw99 wrote:
I don't express myself very well speaking or in writing, but I do marginally better in writing. When I am speaking, I am usually inarticulate and often forget the words I need to use; there are pauses and I often end sentences mid way, I rephrase in my mind the way I want to say things, and start the sentence over again. I find that I often miss my train of thought: I start a sentence coherently but by the time I'm about to land the plane I can't see the runway.

I also have a problem telling stories and holding the attention of the listener. I'm currently trying to understand whether I have a problem with not knowing how to tell stories or just not being able to. It's like, I can't see a logical sequence of events in my head but instead I see the events in my head in a manner that's disorganized and needs thought before it can be expressed coherently. I can see a logical connection between events, but the events themselves are not organized in a logical manner: I see a heap of thoughts loosely attached with strings instead of a nice queue. When attempting to tell a story, I also have a problem building suspense and using my tone of voice to add meaning to my words. (Just imagine listening to someone tell you a story that has no suspense and no punchline and sounds a lot more like a list of facts than a story :D)

My problem could be ADD, and I once had an English professor ask me if I have ADD, but I mentioned this possibility to the last two psychologists I talked to and they told me they don't think I have ADD.

If my problem is not ADD, what is it then? Sheer unintelligentness?


I have a hunch. I wonder if it's related to language pragmatics, in a social context way?

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics

"Pragmatics is a subfield of linguistics which studies the ways in which context contributes to meaning. Pragmatics encompasses speech act theory, conversational implicature, talk in interaction and other approaches to language behavior in philosophy, sociology, and linguistics.[1] It studies how the transmission of meaning depends not only on the linguistic knowledge (e.g. grammar, lexicon etc.) of the speaker and listener, but also on the context of the utterance, knowledge about the status of those involved, the inferred intent of the speaker, and so on.[2] In this respect, pragmatics explains how language users are able to overcome apparent ambiguity, since meaning relies on the manner, place, time etc. of an utterance.[1] The ability to understand another speaker's intended meaning is called pragmatic competence. An utterance describing pragmatic function is described as metapragmatic. Pragmatic awareness is regarded as one of the most challenging aspects of language learning, and comes only through experience."



zer0netgain
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22 Jul 2009, 7:41 pm

In speaking, I find my brain is going so fast it can change topic in mid conversation and leave me wondering what I was originally talking about.



grinningcat
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22 Jul 2009, 8:01 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
In speaking, I find my brain is going so fast it can change topic in mid conversation and leave me wondering what I was originally talking about.


I like to call that "word surfing", which I do quite often :lol: . I find also that everything just crams in at an inopportune moment, especially if I have become anxious in the meantime. I have walked away upset at someone, and later found that i had been audio- taped - I listened back and no wonder the person was reacting strangely, they were not getting a lot of a to b conversation, but some a to x, back to c, then off somewhere else in the alphabet, I just wasn't making sense (I suspect some of the conversation was held somewhere in my brain, and I just broke in with sound occasionally, then went back to brain narrative). I often wonder if my bosses ponder that I can write for them a beautiful letter, and fix their English in documents, but getting on the phone, or talking to someone in person, and heaven forbid trying to defend myself, the words just come out in a giant heap, I stutter, I stammer and otherwise can't think of the appropriate thing to say. I try to slow down, but then people are changing the topic on me so fast I can't get everything out in time. Of anything that I would remotely want to change about me, is being able to speak and make myself understood. However, I guess it is something I have to live with - nice to have company, though. :wink: It is a lot harder to deal with when I thought it was ONLY me...


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23 Jul 2009, 9:40 pm

I'm horrible at giving off-the-cuff explanations and directions. I need to plan and order everything in my head and translate visual and symbolic mental imagery into coherent lanfuage.


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Arya
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25 Aug 2010, 7:40 am

Mw99 wrote:
I don't express myself very well speaking or in writing, but I do marginally better in writing. When I am speaking, I am usually inarticulate and often forget the words I need to use; there are pauses and I often end sentences mid way, I rephrase in my mind the way I want to say things, and start the sentence over again. I find that I often miss my train of thought: I start a sentence coherently but by the time I'm about to land the plane I can't see the runway.

I also have a problem telling stories and holding the attention of the listener. I'm currently trying to understand whether I have a problem with not knowing how to tell stories or just not being able to. It's like, I can't see a logical sequence of events in my head but instead I see the events in my head in a manner that's disorganized and needs thought before it can be expressed coherently. I can see a logical connection between events, but the events themselves are not organized in a logical manner: I see a heap of thoughts loosely attached with strings instead of a nice queue. When attempting to tell a story, I also have a problem building suspense and using my tone of voice to add meaning to my words. (Just imagine listening to someone tell you a story that has no suspense and no punchline and sounds a lot more like a list of facts than a story :D)

My problem could be ADD, and I once had an English professor ask me if I have ADD, but I mentioned this possibility to the last two psychologists I talked to and they told me they don't think I have ADD.

If my problem is not ADD, what is it then? Sheer unintelligentness?


Judging by what you have written in your note, I don't think you have a problem expressing yourself coherently. I wish I could write so clearly and easily. I find it hard to string a few words together. When i talk to my friends i often stutter and lose track of what i am saying. I panic when someone asks me to write a note/essay/report etc. Just recently i was instructed by my tutor to write an appeal letter and send it to my stats lecturer. Despite my best efforts, i ended up copying and pasting someone else's appeal letter. All i did was edit the letter so that it addressed the issue that i was trying to raise. I have never discussed this with anyone so i am not sure whether this may be due to me having ADD or something else all together. What should I do?



pgd
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25 Aug 2010, 9:41 am

Mw99 wrote:
I don't express myself very well speaking or in writing, but I do marginally better in writing. When I am speaking, I am usually inarticulate and often forget the words I need to use; there are pauses and I often end sentences mid way, I rephrase in my mind the way I want to say things, and start the sentence over again. I find that I often miss my train of thought: I start a sentence coherently but by the time I'm about to land the plane I can't see the runway.

I also have a problem telling stories and holding the attention of the listener. I'm currently trying to understand whether I have a problem with not knowing how to tell stories or just not being able to. It's like, I can't see a logical sequence of events in my head but instead I see the events in my head in a manner that's disorganized and needs thought before it can be expressed coherently. I can see a logical connection between events, but the events themselves are not organized in a logical manner: I see a heap of thoughts loosely attached with strings instead of a nice queue. When attempting to tell a story, I also have a problem building suspense and using my tone of voice to add meaning to my words. (Just imagine listening to someone tell you a story that has no suspense and no punchline and sounds a lot more like a list of facts than a story :D)

My problem could be ADD, and I once had an English professor ask me if I have ADD, but I mentioned this possibility to the last two psychologists I talked to and they told me they don't think I have ADD.

If my problem is not ADD, what is it then? Sheer unintelligentness?


---

Possibilities can include perhaps:

http://www.biausa.org/
http://www.headinjury.com/
http://www.sportsconcussions.org/
http://www.givebackorlando.com/

http://www.waiting.com/glossarya.html (Paying attention)
http://www.waiting.com/glossarym.html (Memory)

There are 4 ADHDs (2010) including ADHD Inattentive.

http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-5/auditory.htm

---

Sometimes what can behind subtle paying attention/concentration/focus/memory challenges can be something like:

http://www.encephalitis.info/

---

The many subtle epilepsies: petit mal/absence/complex partial/TLE, etc.

---

In some cases, there can be something like a microscopic scar or brain tumor (benign or otherwise) behind a subtle paying attention/memory challenge.

Other

---

Storytelling involves the imagination (the right hemisphere).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateraliza ... n_function



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25 Aug 2010, 5:18 pm

With me there are extremes with my speaking skills. When I am stressed I have trouble speaking coherently. In fact it could be totally incoherent and gibberish. The other side of me shows there are no problems when you first meet me and I seem normal speaking. I actually speak at autism conferences. When I was young I really didn't even have language, very limited use of words. Now I speak 24 hours a day. When I am in one of those incoherent times under a great deal of stress, it even affects my writing. Basically total breakdown in communication. I have in the past posted some of the incoherent word salad posts. When I am doing that sometimes I am unaware. Sometimes I stutter when speaking or just plain forget what I am trying to say even if its in a middle of a sentence. When I am manic (or more likely hypomanic) I have a pressure of speech, talking very quickly. The reason for mine is primarily stress and as the docs say, "schizoaffective disorder." Stress or ADD can also cause speaking problems and of course autism itself. After all, one of the primary symptoms of autism is having trouble communicating and having a delay in language (unless its Asperger's Syndrome there is no delay).



lunchpunch
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25 Aug 2010, 8:55 pm

Sometimes I feel like I can't say the 'right thing' or I used the 'wrong words' to express how I feel. I talk too fast sometimes but not as fast and as often as I used to.

I feel like I can't communicate correctly with others sometimes and I can't explain it... thus my dilemma.



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26 Aug 2010, 12:16 am

Yep, that's me, although I can express myself way better in writing, even if I have to move sentences around a bit. I didn't use to be that way, but it's gotten a lot worse over the years, probably due to a decade of sleep deprivation and 3 years on ambien.


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26 Aug 2010, 12:50 am

Wow, a bump from 2008...

Interesting, though. I often use outlines to organize writing; outlines have all the points listed below the topics they relate to, and they take advantage of my network-of-ideas way of thinking. Could be a useful writing tool for those who think in a similar style.


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27 Aug 2010, 10:20 pm

@MW99: Yes, I have the exact same thing with myself. When I explain something, it is very difficult to have it come out in such a way that it conveys exactly how I was thinking of it. I think it's that our thoughts are so complex that we're not adept at conveying them. This has bothered me a lot. I've noticed weed helps tremendously with this (and other aspects)- a few hits of weed and I can explain things exactly as I feel them and want to describe them- without it, it's a big struggle. lol, truth.


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27 Aug 2010, 11:24 pm

Callista wrote:
Wow, a bump from 2008...
And it's the whoever bumped this thread's first post!

I'm not going to spend a long time thinking about writing a long and detailed post... but personally, I have no problems expressing myself in writing. However, I'm not a very coherent speaker at all. Many people are surprised when they see my quality of writing for the first time, because my speaking ability is radically worse. I speak in a monotone, stretch my words, and make a huge amount of pauses when I'm actually thinking about what I'm saying and not reciting it by rote. If I am reciting something by rote, I can speak very fluently. My main problem seems to be not being able to talk and to think at the same time - I need the pauses in order to think of what I'm going to say next. And when people talk non-stop, well, I end up not being able to say much at all.


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28 Aug 2010, 6:53 am

Mw99 wrote:
I also have a problem telling stories and holding the attention of the listener.


Have you tried mind mapping (the Tony Buzan stuff) or hierarchical outlining, either on paper or computer software? Both can help organize thoughts, and the skills can be learned and used while speaking too.

There are some good methods in literature too, things like "a story has a beginning, a middle and an end" or "tell them what you are going to say, say it, and finally tell them what you said", which all help with story-telling.



StefanoB
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29 Aug 2010, 2:34 am

I had many of these same issues, and it took about a decade for me, with the help of many others, to find out what the core problem was.

It turned out to be a working memory deficit, which was confirmed by a few neuropsychological tests.

One thing that clued the neuropsychologist in was that my IQ score, broken down into the four subcomponents, had a spread of three standard deviations. My vocabulary score was two standard deviations above the norm, while my processing speed was one standard deviation BELOW the norm. The other two scores were one standard deviation above average. The psychologist that administered the IQ test thought the low processing speed was due to anxiety and the desire for perfection - but my clinical psychologist said this is the default answer, and means they don't really know why it's low. He said it was especially bogus because it was also noted how rapidly I did some of the other tests that time wasn't counted as part of the score, and if it was anxiety, those speed times (which they noted but didn't use in the score calculation) would have been slower too.

Another thing that clued the neuropsychologist in was that my CAPD testing showed that I had a hearing threshold above the 95th percentile.

The neuropsychologist said the high vocabulary combined with the low hearing threshold meant that my brain was trying to compensate for the working memory deficit by overdeveloping my auditory system. (BTW, I think only in sound. No pictures, nothing visual.) He said it's like what happens when someone can't use their legs for mobility and have to use a wheelchair. Their arms get overdeveloped because they are taking on much more of a load. While their arms may be much stronger than the average person's, the arms can only partially compensate for legs.

Now, lest someone think I have an overinflated ego and am bragging about the high vocabulary and hearing - allow me to reiterate that my processing speed is significantly below average. Out in the world, I am treated as dimmer than the average bulb, and am unemployable. When I was younger I had an ego, but it has long since been ground into dust. Oh, hell, I still have an ego, but can't do anything with it except come off like the bitter old cynic I've become.

And on that note, OP, you might want to see if you can have your working memory tested. Working memory deficits play a big part in Executive Dysfunction as well, and ED is common to both ASD and ADD - and I am diagnosed with both, and with ED as well.


MathGirl wrote:
If I am reciting something by rote, I can speak very fluently. My main problem seems to be not being able to talk and to think at the same time - I need the pauses in order to think of what I'm going to say next. And when people talk non-stop, well, I end up not being able to say much at all.

That's exactly it! I can't use the auditory system to both think AND hold something in memory. Reciting something by rote comes from a different area of memory, and avoids the conflict. I'll bet it's not much of a problem to just ramble/free associate, either - also because there's no auditory working memory conflict to deal with.

I can't think when someone is talking, either. Makes conversation difficult, especially if coherent replies (as opposed to grunt and nod replies) are expected. I have just as much problem with writing as I do talking, you just can't detect the pauses and heavy use of cut/paste to rearrange the ideas, or that it takes a few hours to compose a post of this length.