God Damn America - that's what Obama's pastor preached
velodog wrote:
Idaho Aspie , thanks for that last bit of clarification. apparently our views are not quite as far apart as I thought. As far as Rev. Wright being a racist the saying "you are known by the company you keep" as well as "if you lie down with dogs you might wake up with fleas" apply, in my view. I don't believe membership in any organization is a prerequisite to having any particular belief or set of beliefs. Louis Farrakhan has made his worldview very well known. Anyone endorsing him or his beliefs opens themselves up to the same type of scrutiny that would likely be applied to a person or organization that would consort with, or endorse the views of Tom Metzger or David Duke.
Thanks veldog;
Obama has not endorsed the political beliefs of Farrakhan. Nor has he endorsed the political views of Rev. Wright.
I don't think Rev. Wright is a racist. I think he just has an overly passionate way of speaking. A guy that hated american would not serve in its military. There is a big difference between a spirtual belief, and a political belief.
I think if you could film and cherry pick the religious leaders of our political leaders you could do to them what they did to Rev. Wright. Religious view are always in contridiction with current political correctness, be it Mormon, Jew, Catholic, or Methodist.
If you believe someone is who they hang with, then you must believe Jesus was a prostitute, a crook, a tax collector, a theif, and a sinner.
merr wrote:
Idaho Aspie- THANK YOU for saying that. It's so true. I just want to point out to people the Pastor's age. He's an older man, probably the same age as my mother, and let me say the America he grew up in was very different than the America Obama grew up in or any of the younger generations.
I dont know if what Obama's pastor said was really racist in the terms of "hate whites." To me it sounded like he was just pointing out how racist America used to be. But really isnt that just fact?
My mother grew up in North Carolina in the 1950s. She had rocks thrown at her while walking to (segregated)school with little kids calling her a n btch. I can imagined the pastor is so impassioned about this (ie saying hillary has never been called the n word or been passed over by a taxi) because he experienced it. Back then they used to put in the children's textbooks that blacks werent people or werent as evolved. My mother said that those things hurt badly, but she was able to move on because of the experiences she had later. Maybe the Pastor didnt have any positive experiences to change his views?
Similarily I grew up in Virginia in the 90s, and my experiences with whites have been totally different. I went to school with them, best friends with them, am dating a white guy, etc. I see a totally different America than Pastor Wright.
Im not goin to say that the Pastor was right, I dont see what half of what he said had to do with Obama, and I think he prejudged America too soon in terms of how they would vote. But I think that everything he said comes from resentment from the past and not from hatred.
People from the older generation will always harbor what they experiences as teens and young adults.
It's a totally different world now, and I feel bad that this isnt the world he got to experience.
I dont know if what Obama's pastor said was really racist in the terms of "hate whites." To me it sounded like he was just pointing out how racist America used to be. But really isnt that just fact?
My mother grew up in North Carolina in the 1950s. She had rocks thrown at her while walking to (segregated)school with little kids calling her a n btch. I can imagined the pastor is so impassioned about this (ie saying hillary has never been called the n word or been passed over by a taxi) because he experienced it. Back then they used to put in the children's textbooks that blacks werent people or werent as evolved. My mother said that those things hurt badly, but she was able to move on because of the experiences she had later. Maybe the Pastor didnt have any positive experiences to change his views?
Similarily I grew up in Virginia in the 90s, and my experiences with whites have been totally different. I went to school with them, best friends with them, am dating a white guy, etc. I see a totally different America than Pastor Wright.
Im not goin to say that the Pastor was right, I dont see what half of what he said had to do with Obama, and I think he prejudged America too soon in terms of how they would vote. But I think that everything he said comes from resentment from the past and not from hatred.
People from the older generation will always harbor what they experiences as teens and young adults.
It's a totally different world now, and I feel bad that this isnt the world he got to experience.
Merr, I respect your opinions, but don't feel you can use an African-American preacher's age to justify these words in 2008. With age comes wisdom. And, he stands in a pulpit every week to preach the word of Jesus, who taught forgiveness and acceptance. If he's that resentful, he needs to take off his cloth because he's not truly a man of God.
The AA community has major issues and preachers like him don't make them any better. Obama is not responsible for his words, but many in American will hold it against Obama come voting day.
IdahoAspie wrote:
Griff wrote:
velodog wrote:
So, racism isn't racism if it's being practiced by Blacks?
Yes, those black people shouldn't be so racist toward us. We should retaliate and declare white supremacy over them.Have fun defending your White honor, sir. For my part, I just find the entire issue ridiculous.
Being Pro-White, isn't the same as being Being Pro-Black. The reason being that being Pro-White means that you think you are superior to Blacks and other races. One is predjudiced, the other is pride in who you are.
Exactly. And, being pro-Black doesn't require you to have a swastika tattoo or wear a bedsheet over your head.
IdahoAspie wrote:
Obama has not endorsed the political beliefs of Farrakhan. Nor has he endorsed the political views of Rev. Wright.
Correction: Obama has not endorsed the views that are in question. Obama clearly and unequivocally endorses Pastor Wright, "talking about Jesus."Quote:
I think if you could film and cherry pick the religious leaders of our political leaders you could do to them what they did to Rev. Wright.
My highlight speaks for itself.The cause for this entire controversy is politically motivated cherry-picking and distortion.
Some people will tell any lie necessary to get ahead. It reminds me of Republicans (not an honest one in the bunch) and Evangelicals who feel compelled to lie in the name of Jesus. They're two groups who will be exterminated when I have taken over the world. They will die by the millions. They will be hunted down like vermin.
Quote:
If you believe someone is who they hang with, then you must believe Jesus was a prostitute, a crook, a tax collector, a theif, and a sinner.
I say he was the leader of a doomsday cult. They've been saying, "Yup, the world will be coming to an end any day now. Yup, any day now," ever since the dude was nailed to a piece of wood. They'll even admit that they've been making the same repeatedly disproven claim for two thousand years, but then they'll just repeat it again. To me, it demostrates a lack of integrity, like this thread.
You see, the person who created this thread is just going to keep repeating the same crap, verbatim, because this is how people get away with lies. Repeating the same line, verbatim, eventually convinces small-minded people that you're "sticking to your guns," even when there is mounting evidence that it's a freaking crock of bullhockey. Unfortunately, the reverse phenomenon has always been a problem for me because, when someone expresses doubt for what I say, it registers with me as a need to rephrase and "help them understand." It took me until I was an adult to realize what I was doing wrong. Liars are liars because liars are believed. They are our own creation. It took me a long time to believe that they were possible, but I've seen enough and been hurt enough that I'm not going to hold my silence.
All I've seen here is politically motivated slander.
It's not just incorrect. It is wrong.
iamnotaparakeet
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Griff wrote:
All I've seen here is politically motivated slander.
If you actually read what I wrote on page 2, you'll see that it's neither politically motivated nor slander. Read carefully:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I'm not voting for him, but not for the reasons listed above.
Blaming a guy for something another person said is just too strange for words. We don't know his internal motives or thoughts. On the periphery he seems dissatisfied with his Pastor's statements. Whether he is or not I can't say, but it just doesn't seem correct to blame him for another man's actions or words.
Seems like:
"Obama is a member of a Church. The Pastor of that Church said something offensive. Obama is offensive."
The above may be oversimplified in the last part, but I think it's close enough not to be a strawman.
Blaming a guy for something another person said is just too strange for words. We don't know his internal motives or thoughts. On the periphery he seems dissatisfied with his Pastor's statements. Whether he is or not I can't say, but it just doesn't seem correct to blame him for another man's actions or words.
Seems like:
"Obama is a member of a Church. The Pastor of that Church said something offensive. Obama is offensive."
The above may be oversimplified in the last part, but I think it's close enough not to be a strawman.
All you've read, maybe, but not ALL.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Griff wrote:
All I've seen here is politically motivated slander.
If you actually read what I wrote on page 2, you'll see that it's neither politically motivated nor slander. Read carefully:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I'm not voting for him, but not for the reasons listed above.
Blaming a guy for something another person said is just too strange for words. We don't know his internal motives or thoughts. On the periphery he seems dissatisfied with his Pastor's statements. Whether he is or not I can't say, but it just doesn't seem correct to blame him for another man's actions or words.
Seems like:
"Obama is a member of a Church. The Pastor of that Church said something offensive. Obama is offensive."
The above may be oversimplified in the last part, but I think it's close enough not to be a strawman.
Blaming a guy for something another person said is just too strange for words. We don't know his internal motives or thoughts. On the periphery he seems dissatisfied with his Pastor's statements. Whether he is or not I can't say, but it just doesn't seem correct to blame him for another man's actions or words.
Seems like:
"Obama is a member of a Church. The Pastor of that Church said something offensive. Obama is offensive."
The above may be oversimplified in the last part, but I think it's close enough not to be a strawman.
All you've read, maybe, but not ALL.
Griff wrote:
The cause for this entire controversy is politically motivated cherry-picking and distortion.
Some people will tell any lie necessary to get ahead.
Some people will tell any lie necessary to get ahead.
The tapes were reviewed and reported by ABC News. Are you saying that ABC News has something against Obama and wrote this story to help Clinton get ahead?
Griff wrote:
It reminds me of Republicans (not an honest one in the bunch) and Evangelicals who feel compelled to lie in the name of Jesus. They're two groups who will be exterminated when I have taken over the world. They will die by the millions. They will be hunted down like vermin.
Anyone can register as a Republican or claim to be an evangelical but that does NOT mean that they are one. Evangelicals don't lie in the name of Jesus.
Griff wrote:
I say [Jesus] was the leader of a doomsday cult. They've been saying, "Yup, the world will be coming to an end any day now. Yup, any day now," ever since the dude was nailed to a piece of wood. They'll even admit that they've been making the same repeatedly disproven claim for two thousand years, but then they'll just repeat it again. To me, it demostrates a lack of integrity, like this thread.
Actually, the early Christian writers wrote:
"And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, “Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.” Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. (Epistle of Barnabas, Ch.15, written approx. AD 100)"
"For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year. (Irenaeus, Book 5, Ch. 28, written approx. AD 180)"
Several other writings state the world will end 6,000 years after God created Adam. Evidence from the Bible and history suggests that God created Adam approximately 4,000 years before Christ. Therefore, the early Christian writers were predicting the world would end, not anyday, but rather almost 2,000 years in the future. We are likely living in the time period that these early Christian writers predicted the end would come.
"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?... But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2Peter 3:3-4, 8-9, NIV)"
zendell wrote:
Griff wrote:
The cause for this entire controversy is politically motivated cherry-picking and distortion.
Some people will tell any lie necessary to get ahead.
Some people will tell any lie necessary to get ahead.
The tapes were reviewed and reported by ABC News. Are you saying that ABC News has something against Obama and wrote this story to help Clinton get ahead?
Quote:
Anyone can register as a Republican or claim to be an evangelical but that does NOT mean that they are one. Evangelicals don't lie in the name of Jesus.
Ah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Evangelicals cop that crap all the time, and it's wrong.
A conservative who behaves immorally is still a conservative, and, if conservatives consistently behave immorally, it is perfectly valid to state that there is a correlation between conservatism and immoral behavior.
For that matter, I think that you knew this. Don't cop this crap with me if you know it's wrong. I should break your jaw, man. You've got a lot of nerve to come on here and pull this rubbish. Get out of here. Your conduct is vile.
Oh, but wait! I forgot! Evangelicals can't be vile, can they? After all, by definition, they eat coal and excrete diamonds! Okay, I get it now!
DeaconBlues wrote:
Oh, by the way, if you don't think McCain is kissing fundie arse, you missed his appearance at Liberty University a few months back, not to mention his endorsement from Bob Jones U.
Just 'cause some guy decided to get a bunch of people together and say "I like this candidate!" doesn't mean the candidate is for everything that person stands for. And I don't know much about Liberty University, but I do know he hasn't written any books about Jeebuz, unlike Obama.
Let me add that the pastor is full of crap. I'm surprised he didn't atribute the AIDS epidemic to the lawd's wrath against the LGBT community. And yeah, the US government is out to get "them crazy n*****s!" Fundie racist conspiracy theorist FTL.
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Teoka wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Oh, by the way, if you don't think McCain is kissing fundie arse, you missed his appearance at Liberty University a few months back, not to mention his endorsement from Bob Jones U.
Just 'cause some guy decided to get a bunch of people together and say "I like this candidate!" doesn't mean the candidate is for everything that person stands for. And I don't know much about Liberty University, but I do know he hasn't written any books about Jeebuz, unlike Obama.
Let me add that the pastor is full of crap. I'm surprised he didn't atribute the AIDS epidemic to the lawd's wrath against the LGBT community. And yeah, the US government is out to get "them crazy n*****s!" Fundie racist conspiracy theorist FTL.
Well, actually, the US government use to test polio vaccines on Africans, in Africa. They did tests they would never have tried on White Americans. It is believed by some, one of these strands developed into the AIDS virus.
I must also agree with the Reverend Wright that what the US did in the past against Blacks was wrong, and we should not lose sight of that. I also think he is factually correct, that the attacks on 911 was in reaction to our foreign policy.
Teoka wrote:
Let me add that the pastor is full of crap. I'm surprised he didn't atribute the AIDS epidemic to the lawd's wrath against the LGBT community. And yeah, the US government is out to get "them crazy n*****s!" Fundie racist conspiracy theorist FTL.
NewPortbeachdude: No his age doesnt justify his actons, but his age may explain why he said what he said. Yes, it is a new day, but even what you experience now will affect your perceptions in the future. Sometimes it is hard to forget the past and not be resentful. I have an uncle whom's cousin was killed by the KKK several decades ago and he is still resentful. And because of that is particularly annoying to be around him, even his kids find his resentment tiring. Still, with a new age, a new era, it is still hard for people to forget things like that because the past is so vivid. Personally I do think Wright is behind in his views, but I'm not sure if he has personally said he hates white people. Claiming the government is racist and claiming to hate all whites are too different things, arent they?
Teoka wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Oh, by the way, if you don't think McCain is kissing fundie arse, you missed his appearance at Liberty University a few months back, not to mention his endorsement from Bob Jones U.
Just 'cause some guy decided to get a bunch of people together and say "I like this candidate!" doesn't mean the candidate is for everything that person stands for. And I don't know much about Liberty University, but I do know he hasn't written any books about Jeebuz, unlike Obama.
Let me add that the pastor is full of crap. I'm surprised he didn't atribute the AIDS epidemic to the lawd's wrath against the LGBT community. And yeah, the US government is out to get "them crazy n*****s!" Fundie racist conspiracy theorist FTL.
Liberty University is the Baptist college that was founded by Jerry Falwell.
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Tim_Tex wrote:
As for Rev. Wright, he doesn't think that much differently than Fred Phelps.
They both claim that God hates the U.S.
They both claim that God hates the U.S.
With all due respect, that's a pretty ignorant comparison.
Rev. Wright is referring to a very real racial injustice that he himself has experienced (see Mike Huckabee's quoted comments on the other Obama thread). Fred Phelps is a fanatical homophobe that protests at the graves a soldiers (in front of grieving relatives) and claiming that "god hates fags."
There's a pretty big difference, Tim.
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